Poverty as recruiting tool

[Desmond7]

I did a talk to a local history group tonight. At the end, guy comes up and says: "My grandfather fought in WW1 and he said he joined up because the money was better in the army with separation allowances etc."

So I showed him the scale of separation allowances.

I made the point that in Ireland wages were relatively high as opposed to pre-war and that conscription did not apply here. My reasoning being that Grandfather may have joined for a reason other than the old chestnut of 'poverty at home.'

Which set me thinking. Did some vets in the latter years do their own mental revisionism of their motives? And was that influenced by the outpouring of literature etc in the 'between the wars period'?

I wonder how many old vets have perhaps told their families that 'poverty made me join' when, in a great many cases, they joined for 1. perceived adventure; 2, peer pressure 'me mates are going' ; 3, simple patriotism.

Just a thought.

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Des

I agree. Before the war men did join because of Poverty but those that flood to the colours once the war had started join mainly for the three reasons you give, and I think in that order to.

Annette

[sandyford]

After being challenged many times about the reasons for so many soldiers volunteering in 1914/15 I tried to research into the background of the local area when the war broke out. Most people cited poverty and unemployment as the only possible reason for enlistment and I have heard of miners who joined up for this reason.

My research confirmed my impression that the Tyne area was at the height of its economic success at the time - shipbuilding, mining, engineering, railways etc. Of course, the economic success didn't translate into any sort of affluence for the workers in these industries but on the other hand - neither did joining up.

It seems to me that the 3 reasons you have given were certainly a very important part of the equation.

In the case of my father I think he would have wanted to be with his mates - and he was patriotic - and even though he always had a job, he could never have hoped to go far out of Newcastle or to take part in something of national importance.

Kate

[sandyford]

There was of course the issue of food and clothing.

Evidence has been shown on this forum, (can't find the thread because the search is slow tonight) that men gained weight even on active service because of the regular diet.

Kate

[historydavid]

I think you have you have made a valid point, Desmond.

Postwar attaitudes became very anti-war, because of the huge loss of life, and volunteers may well have felt under pressure from public opinion.

It is also possible that some of them were targeted by the vociferous anti-war brigade, who were as convinced of their view as the earlier pro-war fraternity, who even so far as to hand out white feathers to anyone not in uniform.

It would be interesting to know how many of the antis were previously pro-war.

Best wishes

David

[John_Hartley]

II wonder how many old vets have perhaps told their families that 'poverty made me join' when, in a great many cases, they joined for 1. perceived adventure; 2, peer pressure 'me mates are going' ; 3, simple patriotism.

Just a thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At the risk of potential thread-killing, how can one know?

It's gotta be purely speculative as a general issue, but the evidence of "me mates are going" seems pretty well documented in the initial recuits to Pals battalions, territorials and the records of, say, sporting clubs joining en masse.

"Patriotism" then like nostalgia ain't what it used to be

John

[Max]

I have done some digging (excuse the pun) and found that at Edlington pit near Doncaster the average wage for a face worker was £75 per year as opposed to £45 with the army. The miners from this area joined up in their hundreds so I can't imagine that monetary gain would have been one of their motivations.

Andy

[Graham Stewart]

I can only speak from the view of what I found within the region during my own research, but have found that pre-war the most common trade listed on enlistment for the Regular Army is "Labourer".

In this region we had the added complications of mineworkers working the three day fortnight, which had been brought upon them by the Coal Owners Association. A year or two before the outbreak of the War there had been a major strike of miners in the region, which anded in them going back for less money than they were already paid, which actually was far better than a soldiers pay.

The C.O.A. placed the down turn in demand for coal as their reason for closing the pits down and only working them for three days in every fourteen. This was what caused the rush of mineworkers to enlist in 1914, so that by April 1915 over 30,000 had enlisted with the colours.

Ironically the war didn't see the C.O.A. rush to reopen their pits, because a lot of coal from this area was exported to Germany, so the market for Durham coal virtually collapsed overnight. Nor did the Government of the day step in with large orders for it to help Britains industry to change to a war footing.

By the time coal was needed it was too late as the minerworkers had left in droves leaving only the old men and boys of the industry to work the pits on a single shift basis. What's even stranger is when there was a demand for coal the miners who left weren't recalled to help get it.

For some, yes it was perhaps the call of the bugle, for the mineworker a desire to feed their families. We'll never really know the answer, as many of the 1914 volunteers perished before the end of the war, the bulk of those who came back were mainly Derby Scheme or Conscripts, who had a different story to tell of how they ended up with the Colours.

Graham.

[jhill]

I am sure there were many pressures on fellows to join up. In the first couple of years, say to the end of 1915, patriotic fervour and a thirst for adventure were probably paramount. This also included social pressure. I have read references to the young ladies being especially insistant.

However, it is also clear that economic factors also came into play, at least here in western canada. An economic resession had set in in 1914. There were many unemployed and there was no modern social safety net. The army pay in Canada was very attractive in 1914, although after 1916 inflation and a stronger war time economy erased the advantage. I have read enough references to economic issues in various sources to conclude that army pay and benefits were a factor with some recruits in 1914 and 1915.

I agree that it is likely impossible to quantify this to any extent.

[Desmond7]

Cheers folks - and I too remember the thread about the 'weight gain' by soldiers!! Can't find it either ...

In terms of pre-war 'regular enlistment' I dare say the prospect of a poorly paid job in civilian life probably spurred quite a few to join the army.

In volunteering terms at the outbreak of war, I am now quite sure that the other 'motives' played a major part.

And, I've mentioned this before, but I remain amazed at the number of men who had enlisted as volunteers in 1914 who are wounded, gain skills as machinists doing war work and who then join up again as volunteers for the RAF which, it seems, engaged in a major recruiting drive in the summer of 1918.

Des

[Desmond7]

Cheers folks - and I too remember the thread about the 'weight gain' by soldiers!! Can't find it either ...

In terms of pre-war 'regular enlistment' I dare say the prospect of a poorly paid job in civilian life probably spurred quite a few to join the army.

In volunteering terms at the outbreak of war, I am now quite sure that the other 'motives' played a major part.

And, I've mentioned this before, but I remain amazed at the number of men who had enlisted as volunteers in 1914 who are wounded, gain skills as machinists doing war work and who then join up again as volunteers for the RAF which, it seems, engaged in a major recruiting drive in the summer of 1918.

Des

[swizz]

Des,

Re the RAF in Ireland in 1918: I think I remember reading that the Recruiting drive post April / May 1918 was the last ditch attempt by the government to avoid conscription in Ireland. The RAF gained by far the largest number of recruits in Ireland during this period although I don't have the exact figures to hand. Presumably there were a number of reasons why this might have been the case, but I think I'm right in saying that the RAF had higher rates of pay than the infantry?

Swizz

[Desmond7]

I think you're right!!

[ypres1418]

I recall one story told to me years ago that a miner (the father of the man telling the tale) had joined up to get out of the pit and was then transferred to a tunnelling company as he had experience!

Mandy

[zooloo]

Weight gain.

I am certain it was; on average a stone and a half.

Don't have reference though.

zoo

[sandyford]

It's possible that young men might gain weight in 4 years, as their muscles bulked up, in any case, after they were 18.

Quite a lot of the men also had pre war equally strenuous jobs, e.g. labouring & mining.

As Mandy has said, some of the miners were employed in tunneling.

A grandson of a miner, whose grandfather said that had he had joined up for the pay, also said that their skills were to be used to tunnel under the enemy lines and plant bombs. Sadly this miner was killed in the first advance of his battalion.

Kate

[carninyj]

I was given this by a former colleague. I can't stand over the authenticity of the contents but it may be of interest.

Jack Christie came from a poor family on the Shankill Road. He had been a member of the Ulster Volunteers but he said had joined the army because...

We were very poor. Working class people were all very poor at this time. Joining the army was a great adventure for me. He joined the 36th (Ulster) Division.

Jack Campbell came from a poor family in Dublin. There were five brothers in the family and they all joined up...

The eldest brother was always on about seeing the world. Well, we weren't financially in a position to go to see the world. He figured out that by joining the army you could see the world. He joined the Royal Army Medical Corps.

William Kennedy was a farm labourer from Co. Down. He was a Catholic supporter of John Redmond and he wanted Home Rule. He joined up in 1915...

Because I felt it was time I did my bit and the two bob (10p) came in handy for the wife and kid. He joined the 16th (Irish) Division.

Francis Ledwidge came from a poor family in Co. Meath. He read a lot and became a poet...

I joined the British army because she stood between us and an enemy. This enemy would destroy what we value and think important in life.

He joined an Ulster regiment, the 5th Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. He was killed in July 1917 during the Battle of Ypres.

Thomas Kettle was well educated. He had been to ClongowesSchool, near Dublin. He was an Irish Volunteer who was in Belgium when the war broke out. He saw the German soldiers behaviour and was afraid they would treat the Irish cruelly...

If you want to defend your own country you must go to the right place. The right place now is not Ireland but France and Belgium.

He died on the Somme.

E.R Dodds came from a similar background to Kettle. He went to Campbell College, Belfast. He later became a professor at Oxford. He decided not to go to the war. He explained why...

I had young German friends. We used to go out and get drunk together. I could not bear the idea of going out to kill one of them, or that one of them would kill me

Regards

Carninyj

[truthergw]

As to whether poverty was a recruiting tool, it may be of interest to read one or two of the books of Patrick McGill. Known to some members of the forum as the author of " The Great Push ", he also wrote " Children of the Dead End " and " The Rat Pit ". His books will confirm that there was a great deal of poverty at the time of the outbreak of the Great War. At that time the majority of workers were unskilled or semi-skilled. They would receive very much less than a skilled man's wage. A great deal of work was seasonal or intermittent. When not in work, a man and his family would be almost entirely reliant on charity.

[Steven Broomfield]

My granddad joined up in Feby '15. he had a wife and 4 kids, and was aged over 30. By 'profession' he was a carter - i.e., he transported stuff around the district (e.g. Barkis in David Copperfield). He was 5' 7" and weighed 7 stone 10. I think poverty - or, better, rural recession - was a major factor in his enlistment. Regular money coming in, everything provided, and an allowance to remit to the missus.

I think that rural poverty was a factor for the later, married, enlistments: the youngsters went early, but the blokes like my grandad may have easily been attracted more by the money.

Mind you, if I'd been married to my gran, I'd have joined the Foreign Legion - she was an old tartar!

[john w.]

The more you look into the reasons for people joining up the less clear it actually becomes.

This Great War had a lot to answer for

John

[gordon christie]

In the book "with a machine gun to Cambrai" the author George Coppard mentions a regular supply of food as a motivating enlistment factor. As a herbert of 17 he lied to get in probably because his prospects in civvy street were grim and the (khaki shaded) field looked greener.

Furthermore I met many a Fusilier in modern times who joined because

"Thas nay graaft roond heeyah"

Times change somethings do not.

[Desmond7]

Ain't nuthin' simple in this world!

Des

[sandyford]

Except me Des.

As usual we have seen enough reasons for enlistment cited in this thread to be able to say categorically that there were many reasons for enlistment including Grans who were tartars.

Even though the Tyne was experiencing a time of economic prosperity, the men who had work were facing a lifetime of long hours, and hard graft in quite grim surroundings. There was little chance of making improvements to their situation.

Amongst my father's things was a reply to a letter, dated about 1912, of enquiry about emigration. The letter says that he would certainly be able to find a job in his same trade there would be opportunities to 'better' himself.

I certainly think that the working men would have had difficulty in looking back in admitting any motives for enlistment except economic or reasons of duty.

Knowing what we know now, it seems incredible that men would have enlisted for reasons of improving their own and their family's situation, or to have better living conditions, more food etc. or to experience a different way of life.

But of course, in the beginning, certainly, they didn't know what we know now.

Kate

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

Kate as you know a lot of servicemen from Tyneside where already regulars before WW1

And the pulling power for a lot of the new recruits was the formation of the Tyneside Irish and the Tyneside Scottish Battalions.

Brought in purely for unashamed propaganda purposes.

Which had the desired effect.

Mind imagine trying that ploy nowadays haaaaaaaa

[Steve Bramley]

... they joined for 1. perceived adventure; 2, peer pressure 'me mates are going' ; 3, simple patriotism.

Just a thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would agree with all three reasons and that poverty may have played a part in certain circumstances.

However, I am researching a Territorial battalion and would put patriotism and peer pressure before a sense of adventure as far as these men were concerned. Two of the eight pre-war companies from my Battalion were 'works' companies. They must have had the full backing of their employer as the majority signed the ISO so patriotism could have been motivational here.

As far as the local Service battalions were concerned then perhaps the above was in the correct order.

I would have thought that when the newspapers printed the quite graphic accounts from these Terriers in early 1915 it may have changed the motivation of some potential volunteers.

There is evidence of 'later' Terrier volunteers joining from the same workplaces the same streets and relatives of those already in action. This would perhaps in this instance put 'peer pressure' as the foremost motivation?

Regards,

Steve.