Guest Simon Bull Posted 8 August , 2003 Share Posted 8 August , 2003 If a "Regiment" has a Regimental Sergeant Major which part of the Regiment does he attach himself to - eg which Battalion/unit does he go into battle with? Simon Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 8 August , 2003 Share Posted 8 August , 2003 There was an RSM in every Battalion, not just one in a regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 9 August , 2003 Share Posted 9 August , 2003 Simon, This will add confusion. By the Kings Regulations, Peace and War establishments, Parliaments Annual Estimates, and clothing regulations through 1918 there was no rank or appointment called an RSM except in one case. The only type unit which had a position/appointment called a Regimental Serjeant Major (RSM) was a Cavalry Regiment, which is found with-in the War establishments and Annual Estimates. There were no RSMs, as an officially sanctioned appointment, with-in any other type unit including Infantry. Infantry Battalions had Serjeant Majors, not RSMs. They were simply refered to as Serjeant Majors with-in official documents. However, the use of the term RSM for every Serjeant Major appointment is very common now and in period documents. Where the term "Regimental" comes from is the Royal Warrant for Pay. It breaks Warrant pay into several categories: Staff, Regimental, Departmental, and Educational. 44 types of appointments fall under pay category Regimental with the appointments of Serjeant Major being quite a few. So the appointment of the ranking Warrant officer in an Infantry Battalion was Serjeant Major. His rank was Warrant Officer, his appointment was Serjeant Major, and his pay scale was Serjeant Major out of the Category "Regimental". Technically he should have been referred to as "Serjeant Major", but by popular convension was commonly referred to as RSM. RSM being as correct as being referred to as Battalion Serjeant Major, or BSM, which I occasional come across but not as commonly as RSM. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Simon Bull Posted 9 August , 2003 Share Posted 9 August , 2003 Thanks for the very helpful replies gents. Having no military experience and being a logcal kind of person I had assumed that a Regimental Sergeant Major would be the only one in a Regiment, but all is now clear. Thanks again. Simon Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 9 August , 2003 Share Posted 9 August , 2003 It's a bit like explaining that Squadrons in the RAF are commanded by a Wing Commander, not a Squadron Leader... An understandable disconnect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted 9 August , 2003 Share Posted 9 August , 2003 ...or that ship's captains are often Commanders. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted 9 August , 2003 Share Posted 9 August , 2003 Joe, As i have always understood it, and please definately correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't there two types of Warrent Officers (Class one and Class two) and so two different appointments= (Company Sergeant Major- WO Cl 2, responsible for discipline within the Company and RSM-WO Cl 1, responsible for discipline within the Battalion and right hand man to the Adjutant). Also doesn't BSM stand for Battery Serjeant Major (the equivelent to RSM, but in the Artillery). And just to add to this there were also appiontments such as CQMS, which was supposed to be held by a WO Cl 2. Cheers, Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munce Posted 9 August , 2003 Share Posted 9 August , 2003 As an artillery battery was equivalent (in terms of being commanded by a Major) to an infantry company rather than battalion, wouldn't BSM be equivalent to CSM, and not RSM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted 9 August , 2003 Share Posted 9 August , 2003 Yeah sorry Munce, i meant CSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter johnson Posted 9 August , 2003 Share Posted 9 August , 2003 Simon Remembering back to my days in the army, the RSM which was his "appointment"was the senior warrent officer within the regiment ie:wo class one. He was attached to the Headquarters Company, and would normally accompany the Commanding officer when out in the field or on inspections etc. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 9 August , 2003 Share Posted 9 August , 2003 Let's remember that both WO1 (RSM,RQMS) and WO2 (CSM, CQMS, BSM, BQMS etc) were commissioned ranks... they were NOT NCOs, as they both would have had the King's Commission. In an infantry battalion in WW1 there was one RSM and one RQMS, plus one CSM and one CQMS per company... the RSM was the commanding officers right hand man, the man every soldier below the rank of WO1 feared (and many above it, come to that) and obeyed him ... in a company the CSM held the same sort of position; he was the company commander's right hand man. For a good understanding of this, I suggest you read Manning's Her Privates We or Middle Parts of Fortune which gives the average reader a good idea of the hierarchy of an infantry battalion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 9 August , 2003 Share Posted 9 August , 2003 Hi Paul I'll second that Paul, Manning's The Middle Parts of Fortune is a very good insight into the hierarchy of an infantry battalion. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 9 August , 2003 Share Posted 9 August , 2003 I hesitate to contradict you, Paul, but WO is not a commissioned rank. Or wasn't in 1959. I sit here and can look up at my Dad's Warrant, referred to by him as a Warrant, and actually headed "Warrant". The actual wording is "I do hereby constitute and appoint you the said...... to be a Warrant Officer in Her Majesty's Regular Forces from the ............ and to continue in the said Office during the pleasure.................". The wording on a commission is "Constitute and appoint you to be an Officer". A Warrant Officer is certainly set apart from the rank and file, but is not a commissioned officer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellop Posted 9 August , 2003 Share Posted 9 August , 2003 Greetings to all, I have to agree with "Greenwoodman". I have held four of the main appointments and ranks mentioned, in turn and in order they have been: CQMS as a Staff Sergeant, CSM as a Warrant Officer Class 2, RQMS as a Warrant Officer Class 1 and RSM also as a Warrant Officer Class 1. I also proudly have my "Warrant" from the Queen signed on her behalf by the Secretary of State for Defence (in my case Heseltine). The four posts of CQMS, CSM, RQMS and RSM are appointments and not ranks. In the case of CSM, RQMS and RSM the rank has been Warrant Officer (either Class 2 or 1). Warrant Officer is not a commissioned rank, or if it was nobody told me and I need my pension adjusting Regards Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 9 August , 2003 Share Posted 9 August , 2003 At the beginning of the war there was only one rank of Warrant Officer. So an Infantry Battalion had exactly two Warrant Officers in 1914 (pre-war) the Serjeant Major (Not RSM by official title) and the Bandmaster. All other Serjeant Majors and Quartermaster Serjeants were NCO's. In 1915 the WOI and WOII classes were instituted by Army Order. This pretty much aligned most, not all, SMs and QMs as Warrants either WOII in the case of CSMs or SMs (RSMs) for battalions as WOI's. Given the plethora of rank appointments I should have realized that there was an official appointment BSM (Battery SM) and that CSM (Company Serjeant Major) were actual appointments and equivelent. When I referred to BSM I was refering to rare but found reference to the Infantry Battalion's Serjeant Major as BSM. So officially there was no appointment in an Infantry Battalion called an RSM, but he was almost universally referred to as such, and on rare occasions BSM. The only unit to have an RSM was a cavalry regiment, although with-in the KR this was still not an official appointment as it is not found in para 282. However, my KR does not incorporate the 1915 WO class structure and I don't have a copy of the actual Army Orders so I don't know if RSM is specifically called out in the AO. What I do know that in all the War establishments through 1918 onl;y the Cav. Reg.t had RSMs and no other unit. I have a good (1916) 11th Gordon year book where the BSM is quite frequently used along with a few other references although nothing like the term RSM. I found that ranks and appointments are anything but a static description over the years. A common pitfall is to assume what is true today or even 40-45 was the same 14-18. It might and probably was not the same. In WWI Warrants Officers were as described, they held warrants and not commissions. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 10 August , 2003 Share Posted 10 August , 2003 Thanks for that clarification chaps - I was confusing a warrant with a commission, it seems; I was also thinking back to an old veteran pal who was a CSM in WW1 and proudly had his warrant, which he always referred to as his 'commission' (!) hanging on the wall. As usual Joe Sweeney comes up with the good - I am really looking forward to this book of yours on the British Army in WW1... get writing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 10 August , 2003 Share Posted 10 August , 2003 A supplementary question. What Honours & Awards were the WO's entitled to? Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 10 August , 2003 Share Posted 10 August , 2003 Interestingly enough, the Military Cross, but not the DSO... but also the DCM and MM... so 'officers' but not quite 'officers' !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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