Haig`s Diary

[PhilB]

Diary 20/7/16:-

About 6.30pm General Pershing arrived. I had a talk with him before and also after dinner. I was much struck with his quiet gentlemanly bearing - so unusual for an American. Most anxious to learn, and fully realizes the greatness of the task before him.....

His AG (LT Col Alvord) and CGS (Lt Col J.G.Harbord) are men of less quality, and are hardly "soldiers" in our sense of the term, all quite ignorant of the problems of modern war. The CGS is a kindly soft looking fellow with a face of a Punchinello. The AG having served long in Manilla and other hot places, seems to be less alert mentally than the others. The ADC (Capt G.S.Patton) is a fire eater, and longs for the fray.

Well, he got the last bit spot on! Do our American members consider Haig`s observations accurate? Are there similar quotes of what they thought of Haig?

[SMG65]

Two weeks ago I was in Washington DC and went to the Smithsonian Museum of American History (or should it be the American Version of History, for those like me with an interest in the wars between Britain and America of 1776 and 1812 this museum would have you spitting tacks).

Their section on the Great War was small and abysmal and it basically made out that the war was a stalemate until the Americans came in and broke the stalemate.

I then went to the Museum for Aviation and Space and found the section on the Great War there to be about three times bigger, more balanced and the majority of it was about the land battles, with photographs we would all recognise.

I think they have their Great War section in the wrong museum.

I believe that most Americans wouldn't know what the Great War was let alone Haig.

P.S. I am not an 'American basher', I love the people and the country, its just their knowledge of History that frustrates me, ( I was once asked by some High School students which continent the country the United Nations was in and what language they spoke).

Sean

[AndyHollinger]

Welcome to the US ... and, yes, we're lucky the Smithsonian actually has a WWI section. Think of the War in April 1917 and then think of the War in November 1918 ....

While we realize there were few land military contributions of the US ... the naval war changes dramatically AND, of course, the supply situation wihtout the Americans would have been interestings ...

So, as WWI in America is seen as an opening to WWII, it is hardly surprizing to see only our part displayed as important ...

You are totally right about "most" Americans ...

[Borden Battery]

Speaking as a Canadian, the level of quality international news reporting within the USA needs to be upgraded and then expanded in the teaching within the schools. I recall spending one entire class year on the history of the USA.

Of course, the above comments should be heeded by any nation. To only look to explanations of international events and history from within only your own understanding leads to a distorted nationalism and associated consequences.

So where to begin - perhaps the very first thing related to external world relationships might start with the USA weather maps. Contrary to public opinion, the world and the weather doesn't stop at the 49th Parallel as depicted by the blank space on almost all television weather maps.

[busybee]

I'm new here but realize this is not a forum for lively political discussion, so pardon me if I overstep any boundaries. Plus a bit off the topic of m13pgb's question.

My brother and I grew up in California during the 70s and 80s. My parents, who are Canadians, were apalled by our history courses. My experience, at least, is that we spent the majority of our time focusing on US history. We spent a year on California alone. Outside US history, we spent more time on ancient world history rather than current.

Most Americans do not travel beyond the US, nor do they care to think beyond its borders. However, given the size of the country, and the bias of our news it's somewhat understandable. Since 9/11, we wasted our international goodwill and instead of becoming a more global society, the US has become even more insular. Our current pres is a good example of the average American stereotype--prior to his first term, he was one of the least traveled nominees in recent history and probably could not locate on a map (much less pronounce) some of the countries he talked about during the debates. This despite money and a family with political connections.

Generalizations about a people, particularly as varied as the US is in geography and character, usually contain a grain of truth, but I think it's unfair to say that stereotypes accurately describe everyone. Like SMG65 said above, my impression prior to university was that WWI was a forgetable war that involved non US interests but that our involvement was responsible for the ultimate victory. Common thinking here is that WWI was a prelude to WWII, like Andy says. Though I now think WWI completely changed the entire mindset of a generation and had a greater effect on Western culture in terms of language, art, politics, social values and roles, dress etc. than WWII did or arguably any other event of the last century.

Can you see why no one wants to talk to me!?!

In any case, I think Haig's comment "having served long in Manilla and other hot places, seems to be less alert mentally than the others" is hilarious. Living in muddy, lice infested trenches punctuated by thunderous bombing is so much better for mental clarity.

[Borden Battery]

As I was one who helped bring this initial post a little off topic, might we bring the discussion back into focus and see what can be found out about AG (LT Col Alvord) and CGS (Lt Col J.G.Harbord). The story of ADC (Capt G.S.Patton) is reasonably well known as is another captain named McArthur.

Who has any information on the history of Alvord and Harbord?

Borden Battery

[Neil Burns]

Harboard commanded the Marine Brigade at Belleau Wood and later the entire 2nd Infantry Division from July of 1918 until early August when he was put in charge of the massive S.O.S (service of supply) for which he was awarded the US DSM

Alvord is a mystery although he did manage to earn a US DSM:

Benjamin Alvord Col. Adjutant General's Dept. US Army

As AG of the AEF during the beginning of it's organization his long experience, good judgement, and breadth of vision were of great value in the establishment....of the AEF.

Edited to add: This must be from 1917 not 1916.

[PhilB]

Edited to add: This must be from 1917 not 1916.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quite right! My mistake! Phil B

[AndyHollinger]

Bringing a thread BACK to it's subject is dirty pool.

I was quite enjoying the American Self-perception bashing ....

Place a map of Europe on the map of Texas. Place London on San Angelo ... find out if Berlin isn't west of Dallas. Europe is so tiny.

Figure out that most Americans move every 7 years. Over 50% of America lives in a home not 15 years old. 80% of America lives in a home not 50 years old. Compare to Western Europe. Now compare to Eastern Europe. It's staggering. America thinks 100 years is an incredibly long time.

I show the class a picture of my crossing the channel in the Sea Cat. ... Here I am on a Hydrofoil, taking a picture of a modern port, above which is Plantagenet castle 1100 AD around a roman lighthous 100AD ...

Time and Space guys ... it's all different.

But, on the bright side. New Yorkers, Californians and Texans all view the world as ending about 50miles outside their particular boundary ... maybe everyone does, but Europe being so tiny has a lot of different people inside those boundaries.

I have it on good authority that the world DOES end somewhere in downtown Dallas (New Jersey on the Prairie) ...