olosangus Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 Hi, I often read about attacks on this or that "redoubt'. They were clearly formidable defensive systems but I have never seen a really good picture or diagram of what one actually looked like or consisted of. Does anyone know where I might find one. Thanks. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 See here for three page discussion about a famous redoubt with many excellent maps/views/opinions/debate. Also do a search for 'Schwaben Redoubt' any date ... there should be one with a rather fanciful artists impression. Des Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olosangus Posted 16 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2005 Thanks Desmond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcderms Posted 16 October , 2005 Share Posted 16 October , 2005 Leipzig Redoubt 1916 (pre-1/7/16 bombardment) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcderms Posted 16 October , 2005 Share Posted 16 October , 2005 Hohenzollern redoubt 1915-16 Both redoubts were formed from pre-war quarries and were essentially fortified strongpoints in the German front line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIFFO Posted 18 October , 2005 Share Posted 18 October , 2005 I opened this can of worms at the begining of the year re the schwaben I looked at the maps,looked at were there tunnels or not,but I tell you,when I stood in the field beside millbrook and looked down the slope that the irish had to climb,man they were brave men,I WOULD HAVE NEEDED MORE THAN A TOT OF RUM, I can not believe with all the learned people that are on this site that no one has a photo of the schwaben,either before during or after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burlington Posted 18 October , 2005 Share Posted 18 October , 2005 This is an alleged diagram of Schwaben. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Posted 18 October , 2005 Share Posted 18 October , 2005 Burlington, that is a very clear example of a redoubt, thankyou. Cheers Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 18 October , 2005 Share Posted 18 October , 2005 Ozzie Have you taken a look at the thread recommended by Desmond? The sketch provided by Burlington is completely and utterly wrong. I could use a more robust expression, but the whole point of these discussions is to try to establish the truth about these places. Attached ( I hope) is the best plan of the Schwaben Redoubt. The original is in the records of Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment 8 in the Kriegsarchiv, Munich. It dates from July 1916 and was drawn up at a scale of 1:2,500. There were never any tunnels under Schwaben Redoubt, which was no more and no less than a field fortification with a number of indiviual dugouts beneath it. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burlington Posted 18 October , 2005 Share Posted 18 October , 2005 Ozzie The sketch provided by Burlington is completely and utterly wrong. I could use a more robust expression, but the whole point of these discussions is to try to establish the truth about these places. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry Jack but I do object to your choice of language. What part of the word 'alleged' do you not understand? Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Posted 18 October , 2005 Share Posted 18 October , 2005 OK, lets get back to ABC's. Correct me if I am wrong, PLEASE. A redoubt is a section or place in the frontline that is heavily fortified? has multiple fields of fire? and heavily manned? as opposed to the rest of the line? Never having walked the battlefields or studied and learnt in great detail trench maps( I can get the general picture and that's about it), very detailed trench maps leave me floundering. Now Des's graphics are a great help to such illiterate trench map readers such as I. I can follow rear line, saps and front line trenches (roughly) when given it in detailed notes. Wonder if any Uni's give lectures in this stuff here in Oz? Trying to understand so that I get things right. Question. McDerms post image looks like a well constucted trench. What makes it a redoubt. Thanks Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 18 October , 2005 Share Posted 18 October , 2005 Martin Don't get me wrong. I am not getting at you. What niggles me is that the sketch you posted is often published in magazines and books as a truthful depiction of the redoubt and is accepted as such- thus perpetuating a wholly unwarranted myth about the dimensions, construction and prupose of the place. It is an artist's impression and it simply does not square with the known facts about this redoubt. It cannot possibly have been drawn by anyone involved in post-battle examination of the site. All the arguments were rehearsed earlier this year, when I posted several plans of the place as it actually developed and as it was surveyed by the Royal Engineers after the battle was over - which is why I asked if the earlier thread had been read through. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burlington Posted 18 October , 2005 Share Posted 18 October , 2005 OK Jack points taken. The sketch actually came from A.N.Other WW1 site (I think; I collect so much stuff!). It was marked as being contemporary. I concur that it is not Schwaben. Could be any other redoubt!! Regards Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somme1916 Posted 20 October , 2005 Share Posted 20 October , 2005 ...when I posted several plans of the place as it actually developed and as it was surveyed by the Royal Engineers after the battle was over - which is why I asked if the earlier thread had been read through. Jack <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Jack, Where can I find the treat you mentioned? I'd really like to see those plans, those tunnels have intrested me for quite a while now. Cheers, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 20 October , 2005 Share Posted 20 October , 2005 Jon - see my original post, the link will take you to the thread he mentioned. And if do say so myself, I think it was a bleedin' good one which could/should have been developed further. I think the more perspectives - from the air, the ground, then, now etc etc .. the more we can understand not only the various actions, but the problems faced by both attackers and defenders. Anyone up for continuing the 'Killing Field' thread as suggested at the end .. post up and look happy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 20 October , 2005 Share Posted 20 October , 2005 OK, lets get back to ABC's. Correct me if I am wrong, PLEASE. A redoubt is a section or place in the frontline that is heavily fortified? has multiple fields of fire? and heavily manned? as opposed to the rest of the line? Ozzie, a key feature of a redoubt is that it is a self-contained area of fortification. It had all-around defensive capability, making it possible to act as an island of defence or focal point for the defence if you will. From a German perspective, it could act as a Schwerpunkt. Redoubts were a feature of the British defensive works created by Fifth Army prior to the German attack in March 1918. One of the most famous is Manchester Redoubt, featured by Holmes is his documentary series on the First World War. The Tommies disliked them intensely, referring to redoubts as 'bird-cages'. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paullaw1155 Posted 20 October , 2005 Share Posted 20 October , 2005 Hi, I often read about attacks on this or that "redoubt'. They were clearly formidable defensive systems but I have never seen a really good picture or diagram of what one actually looked like or consisted of. Does anyone know where I might find one. Thanks. Simon Simon There is a aerial photograph in the book by Paul Reed "Walking the Somme" showing the Hawthorn ridge redoubt. Hope that helps Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Posted 21 October , 2005 Share Posted 21 October , 2005 Thankyou Robert for your reply. It helps clear it up. Cheers Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somme1916 Posted 21 October , 2005 Share Posted 21 October , 2005 Jon - see my original post, the link will take you to the thread he mentioned. And if do say so myself, I think it was a bleedin' good one which could/should have been developed further. Thanks Desmond, I overlooked that link when I read through this thread for the first time a couple of days ago. Cheers for the link and to all who contributed those nice images! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now