armourersergeant Posted 4 August , 2003 Share Posted 4 August , 2003 'Dishonoured' by Peter.T.Scott. published by Tom Donovan Publishing paperback... This is what i would discribe as a small pamphlet type book only consisting of ninety pages but it covers relatively well a small incident that occured during the retreat from Mons by the 2nd Battalion Royal Dublin Fusiliers and the 1st Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment of the 4th Division BEF. Usually the surrender of the two regiments gets a small paragraph in most books and in fact is covered by Lyn Macdonald in her book '1914'. Unfortunately and unlike Macdonald she miss quotes and spells the names incorrectly. For those that are not aware of the incident it transpires that the two commanding officers on being told that the Town of St Quentin is about to fall to the Germans and that their men have no more energy to carry on the retreat , surrender to save the town from distruction. Unfortunately the Germans are not as near as feared and a cavalry patrol happens upon the two units and discovers what is happening. Major Tom Bridges the senior cavalry officer present uses a toy drum to beat a tune and some how gets the men to follow him in continuing the retreat. Obviously the two Colonels try to recind the note of surrender but to no avail. Both men are later cashiered and one serves in the French Foriegn legion to gain back his honour. It is easy to feel sorry for the two men as they did what they thought to be the best thing at the time but obviously the actions of Bridges in getting the near 'mutiness' men to continue the retreat proves ultimately that the officers were wrong(IMO). The book not only covers this incident but the structure of the 4th Division to which they belong and some of the main characters and officers are mentioned and brief summaries of their careers. Among them are General Snow divisional commander and his staff include Edmonds of official history fame and Montgomery-Massingberd who would in the thirties become CIGS. Also there is a list of officers from the two battalions and one famous name appears in the guise of leftnant B.L.Montgomery and whilst he is not with the troops in St Quentin you may not be surprised that this incident does not feature heavily in his autobiography ( according to author). It is by no means a 'famous' read but for those that like to read about what i call the little wars it puts much meat on a usually skinny bone of a topic. It also introduced me to two men i am researching at this moment General Sir Thomas D'oyly Snow, commander of 4th Division, and Forestier-Walker BGGS of 2nd corps. For that alone it was a good read. Arm. There is a good refernce guide at the back and some appendix imformation and many documents used as referece have been listed also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 4 August , 2003 Share Posted 4 August , 2003 It's far more accurate than the account in Lyn Macdonald's '1914', which at one point transposes the Battalions commanded by the respective Colonels! Lt Col Elkington of the Royal Warwicks is an amazing tale... cashiered, joined the Foreign Legion as a Private, decorated, seriously wounded, reinstated on the orders of the King, and ended the war with a DSO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted 4 September , 2003 Share Posted 4 September , 2003 Tom Donovan just sent me a copy of "Dishonoured" and I am about half way through it. A good read and quite an amazing story. As someone who is very keen on the events surrounding the BEF in August,1914, this little book is a dandy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 4 September , 2003 Share Posted 4 September , 2003 The incident is also covered in great detail in 'Seek Glory, Now Keep Glory', a recent history of the 1st Royal Warwicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 4 September , 2003 Share Posted 4 September , 2003 There is a photograph in one of the 1930 editions of "The Antelope", the regimental magazine of the RWR. It depicts Elkington and Monty side by side with a quote from the latter saying in effect that Lt Col Elkington was now forgiven. Terry Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 5 September , 2003 Share Posted 5 September , 2003 Lt Col Elkington of the Royal Warwicks is an amazing tale... cashiered, joined the Foreign Legion as a Private, decorated, seriously wounded, reinstated on the orders of the King, and ended the war with a DSO. I am always impressed by the way in which the British Army can find it in its heart to forgive Lt. Colonels but found it necessary to shoot 306 other ranks for much lesser offences Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 5 September , 2003 Author Share Posted 5 September , 2003 Hedley i think possibly that the two officers were cashiered not for cowardice in the face of the enemy but more for dereliction of duty. I have often wondered why they did not investigate what they were being told but then fatigue may have set in. Though i do get your point in some respects. though i can not see a sergeant being executed if he had surrendered his platoon in similar instances. I believe they did it to ' protect' the town from distruction. What would be deemed a lesser offence for which men were shot. this is a serious question as i do not know much about this, i have seen much written about those executed on this forum but after getting 'burnt' once by showing a opinion that i later had to conceed was wrong i have kept out of it. Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 6 September , 2003 Share Posted 6 September , 2003 Arm: - In this case what is the distinction between ‘dereliction of duty’ and ‘cowardice’, ‘casting aside arms in the face of the enemy’ or ‘desertion’? These are all distinctions to be made when it suits the book of those in power. They are all giving up on the job without good cause. The real questions are: What else could Elkington and his mate been charged with and why weren’t they? To describe what they did as ‘dereliction of duty’ is 1914-style ‘spin’, an artifice which enabled the British officer class to look after their own. If they had wanted to shoot them, they would have found a way to so. Sergeants were executed for much lesser offences than this. See Sykes and Putakowski for further details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 6 September , 2003 Author Share Posted 6 September , 2003 Surely if they surrendered there battalions to save the civilians in the town and the town itself this can not be seen as cowardice. I am only presuming that this was the case by the way. Where as to refuse to go into the breech so to speak is another matter surely. i dont think it was ever suggested that the men were cowards and had tried to save their own lives. But perhaps you do have a point in one respect. this was the begging of the war , i wonder how they would have been treated if they had done something similar in say 1917. Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 6 September , 2003 Share Posted 6 September , 2003 Arm : The one reason I have heard as to why Elkington (and other senior officers who threw in the towel en-route to the Marne – he was not the only one) were not court-martialed for capital offences is that it would be bad for morale. Apparently it was bad for morale to shoot officers – but excellent for morale to shoot other ranks. I don’t understand this. Perhaps someone could explain it to me. Listen, Arm, the truth of the mattter is that at any point during the war a Heavenly Hand could have inscribed the following message in letters of fire and gold across the wall of Haig’s GHQ: “Thou shalt execute some officers who fall down on the job” – and they still would have ignored it. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 18 November , 2004 Share Posted 18 November , 2004 There had been some threads and posts earlier this fall about books relating to the opening months of the war. Although we are only slightly past the anniversary time frame, this book sound well worth looking into. Arm... Is there any chance you might have the ISBN? Thanks, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 18 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2004 Your wish is my command. ISBN 1-871085-25-X regards Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now