Guest mwfoster Posted 6 October , 2005 Share Posted 6 October , 2005 I'm researching my Grandfather, William Foster. Growing up, we were told many stories about his wartime service in the Lancashire Fusiliers. He was born and raised in Stockport and went directly from there into the Army. I recently came across his medals and posted a query on the Soldiers board on this site. The response I got was that the inscription on his medals indicated he served in the Royal Irish Rifles. Would someone be able to clear up the confusion here? Thanks Mark The actual inscription is 3/10544 PTE. W. FOSTER R. IR. RIF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 6 October , 2005 Share Posted 6 October , 2005 Mark The inscription certainly confirms that information you have. The "RIR" is Royal Irish Rifles. The "RIF" is, I presume, Royal Irish Fusiliers - although there's no mention of that on his Medal Index Card (online at the National Archives). It may be that he never served abroad with the RIF and that's why there's nothing onn the card. I don't know enough about medal inscriptions to know if hiome service with the RIF would be inscribed on the medal. In terms of the Lancs Fusiliers, I havnt really got an answer. Possible that he served with them after the end of the War (and then it wouldnt be on the medals). Or, and with the greatest respect, is it possible that, in later life, he had confused the LFs with RIFs? Do you know the address he lived in Stockport? If he was over 21 in 1918, he would be on the absent voters list and this lists unit. The Local Heritage Library @ Stockport holds a copy on microfilm and, I'm sure, would look it up for you (but they wouldnt trawl through it to search on the "off-chance"). John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markinbelfast Posted 6 October , 2005 Share Posted 6 October , 2005 http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...&resultcount=17 Description Medal card of Foster, William Corps Regiment No Rank Royal Irish Rifles 3/10544 Private Date 1914-1920 Catalogue reference WO 372/7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essexboy68 Posted 6 October , 2005 Share Posted 6 October , 2005 Mark I am not an expert on this subject by any means, but maybe the following information, gleaned when I asked a question here will help. Medals were issued with the name of the regiment or corps in which the soldier originally enlisted (or maybe went overseas with, but I do not believe so). This means that your grandfather could have been transferred to the lancashire Fusiliers. However, I do believe that units are annotated on the MIC. Hopefully this may help you in your investigations, although a trip to the PRO to find out if his records survived the Blitz may be in order. Good Luck Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broznitsky Posted 7 October , 2005 Share Posted 7 October , 2005 Medals were issued with the name of the regiment or corps in which the soldier originally enlisted (or maybe went overseas with, but I do not believe so). In the Canadian army at least, medals were issued with the unit that the man hit overseas soil with, whether France & Flanders, or Salonika, or wherever. I believe this is the same rule of thumb for all Imperial forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mwfoster Posted 7 October , 2005 Share Posted 7 October , 2005 "Or, and with the greatest respect, is it possible that, in later life, he had confused the LFs with RIFs? Do you know the address he lived in Stockport? If he was over 21 in 1918, he would be on the absent voters list and this lists unit. " No offence taken. My earliest recollections (1950's), along with those of my siblings and my mother, have to do with the Lancashire Fusiliers. And I always heard his son, my father, talk about the Lancashire Fusiliers. He was born in 1898 and would not have turned 21 until 1919. He was very lucid until his death in 1991. In my post on the other forum, I described how he was shot through the throat, gassed, captured by the German Army, and forced to work in the salt mines until the end of the War. The only other memento we have is a framed letter from the King welcoming him home afterwards. Thats why I am so surprised to find out about the inscription on his medals. I have previously contacted the MoD and was told that no records of his have survived. Thank you all for the replies; it's just very confusing. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 8 October , 2005 Share Posted 8 October , 2005 I have previously contacted the MoD and was told that no records of his have survived. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Mark One further thought - the service records if they exist are at the national Archives in london, not the MoD. Unless you're planning a trip over here, it may well be worth you employing a researcher to have a proper look to see if they exist. The NA's website lists a number of researchers, and you'll find others often as links from WW1 website, including the Long long Trail. If you decided to go down this route, look for one who specialises in military (pref. WW1) matters. Should be easily affordable (I would thought in the £50 region). John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 8 October , 2005 Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Just to clarify folks R. Ir. Rif. = The Royal Irish Rifles R. Ir. Fus. = The Royal Irish Fusiliers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 8 October , 2005 Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Just to clarify folks R. Ir. Rif. = The Royal Irish Rifles R. Ir. Fus. = The Royal Irish Fusiliers. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Isn't this wot I said in post#2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 9 October , 2005 Share Posted 9 October , 2005 Did he earn a Star & if so, have you checked the Btn Medal Rolls referenced on his MIC? Im assuming (maybe wrongly so) that the medals inscribed RIR refer to the last unit he served in, so praps any Star he earned would have been earned in a different unit? It MAY be that they refer to a LF Unit - worth a nose perhaps? If you get nowhere, mail me & Ill have a looksy for the Rolls next time Im at the NA, if no one else can get there before me of course ... If he didnt earn a Star or the rolls say RIR's, then ignore me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mwfoster Posted 11 October , 2005 Share Posted 11 October , 2005 Did he earn a Star & if so, have you checked the Btn Medal Rolls referenced on his MIC? I do not know of a Star. All I have of his are the Victory Medal and the War Medal. If I'm reading his medal card correctly I do not see any reference to a Star. But then again maybe I'm not reading it correctly. He was wounded and gassed but I do not know the circumstances of his discharge from the Army. Something else I'm confused about. How did someone who lived all his life in Stockport wind up in the Royal Irish Rifles? Am I mistakenly thinking that in the British Army you served in a local unit? Thanks Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 11 October , 2005 Share Posted 11 October , 2005 Am I mistakenly thinking that in the British Army you served in a local unit? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You are mistaken, sort of. In the early months, guys could pretty much choose who they joined. With large numbers from Stockport choosing the local Cheshires or Manchesters. Some, however, might have had family ties to other areas, or just fancied an adventure - so we have quite a number from the area joining kilted regiments. Later in the war though (including when men returned from sick leave), they went where the need was greatest) John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 11 October , 2005 Share Posted 11 October , 2005 Even at the outset of the war you might well not have ended up in a local unit, indeed many soldiers travelled great distances to join up far from home to join a specific unit which may have had no link to their locale. As the war went on the social problems of major losses in pals units emphasised the impact on a local community if all the men from the area served together - hence pals units fell out of favour in the latter part of the war. Conscription from 1916 onwards increasingly saw men slotted in where reinforcement drafts were most needed and men were also transferred between units when need arose. Whilst some men served with "local" units many did not. His age (21 in 1919) suggests either he joined up under age OR did not go into the forces until 1916 or later (and may even have been conscripted). It is perfectly possible that he started training wherever there was room in a training unit and then was transferred to another unit for or during active service. I know this doesn't answer any questions but I hope it helps explain better some of the possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest elfranco83 Posted 15 February , 2006 Share Posted 15 February , 2006 Just to clarify. R.I.R.= The Royal Irish Regiment who were a different regiment but still active at that time, R.Ir.Rif.=Royal Irish Rifles, R.Ir.Fus=Royal Irish Fusiliers, regards, Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 15 February , 2006 Share Posted 15 February , 2006 My understanding is that the BWM was awarded basis the rank at which the serviceman held on his first entry to a theatre of war. I think it follows that this would equally apply to his regiment. In that case, it could well be that this man was transferred from the RIF/RIR to the Lancashire Fusiliers, and that he saw most if not all of his active service with the latter, however his medals were issued basis his original regiment. Does he have another MIC by any chance? But I guess only his service records will clear it up. Ian PS - afterthought - are there any other servicemen who show on Soldiers Died having transferred between these units? Might give us a pointer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 15 February , 2006 Share Posted 15 February , 2006 mark,i will check the casualty lists[wounded] in the stockport papers tonight,if hes in there,it may clear up your mystery,if i find owt,i will post it tomorrow when i get home,bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 15 February , 2006 Share Posted 15 February , 2006 Had a quick look at SDGW to see if there were any Lancs/RIR transferees. Some numbers around 1055xx series (closest I could get) came from the Argylls, and a couple of Lancs Fus came from the RIR, but their RIR numbers were nothing like your man's series, although they were not apparently of Irish origin (one from Salford, the other Durham). Does not help much, but the MIC does not reflect a previous regiment in certainly the one case I looked further at (chap originally from the Argylls). Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 16 February , 2006 Share Posted 16 February , 2006 mark,nothing in the papers,when i get the 1917 editions,i will go through them as well,bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSF Posted 16 February , 2006 Share Posted 16 February , 2006 Are they not POW lists of some sort that could be checked ? Did the Germans use poison gas in March 1918 ? I know large numbers of prisioners were taken at this time. Just a thought. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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