Graham Smith Posted 21 September , 2005 Share Posted 21 September , 2005 This picture shows my Grandfather front row on right wearing sgt's stripes He joined the 6 South Staffs territorial Force on 14 April 1908 He served until his discharge in 18 April 1916 All the documents I have refer to him as Private 558. Can anyone date the photograph? Could he have been a Sgt in the Territorial force then handed his stripes back before going to France? Any ideas are welcomed (fingers crossd that the picture appaers) I'm an IT duffer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 21 September , 2005 Share Posted 21 September , 2005 Graham. For what it's worth the scarlet tunic he's wearing is known to us collectors as the 1909 Pattern scarlet tunic, in that it has the pointed cuff in "facing" colour of the South Staffs which is white and also the collar in the facing colour too. The pointer to the 1909 Pattern is that the shoulder straps have a white piping edge, but unlike the preceding pattern of tunic the shoulder titles worn with it are in metal and not embroided as they had been previously. The unusual pointer with this photo is the fact that they seem to be wearing the 1908 Pattern webb belt, which was introduced with the rest of the webb equipment. Considering he's a corporal in the photo and that Territorial didn't seem to have adopted the new scarlet tunic which was introduced in 1911 and rarely wore scarlet after 1918, then you have to say possibly one of the last summer camps before the War i.e. 1913 or 1914. If the postcard has a photographers mark on it, the regimental museum may have a list of Territorial camps that the 6th Bn were at prior to the War that may match that mark. Don't know if this makes much sense to you. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 21 September , 2005 Share Posted 21 September , 2005 Graham, Sorry should have been "Sgt in the photo" and not corporal. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted 21 September , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 September , 2005 Graham, Many thanks for that information. The picture is one from the 'family album' so its not a postcard style item. The original has no photographers mark on the back of it. Other forum members who have viewed the picture in the flesh (At Black Country Night Out 2- --Utterly off topic thread) agree in the webbing belt issue. Can you add anything to the fact that he is always listed as a private? If not thanks for your help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 21 September , 2005 Share Posted 21 September , 2005 Graham, Sorry I can't give any idea as to why he's always listed as Pte, but to go from Pte to Sgt in possibly four years is really going some and very, very unusual. I spent fourteen years in the T.A. myself and was still only a Cpl when I finished. So was the photo posed, with the consent of the other Sgt's, as it is an offence to wear rank you're not entitled too, or was he a high flyer who reverted back to Pte at his own request??? As a one off I'd try the Staffords Museum to see if they have any old 6th Bn, Photo albums which may be dated, that may hold a copy of this photo. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted 21 September , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 September , 2005 Graham, Cheers, I think I will try a visit to the museum as you suggest. The only item that does bear his name and Sgt rank is a marksman trophy that the family has. It bears his name and that of his brother Fred who served during the Boar war I hope to get it out of the loft and post a few pictures of it ASAP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 21 September , 2005 Share Posted 21 September , 2005 Graham, As the rank Sgt is on his marksmans trophy, I have known it happen that when it comes to competitions outside of the battalion, people have been either promoted or demoted to ensure a teams success, only to revert to their original rank on completion. Could this possibly be the answer?? Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewThornton Posted 22 September , 2005 Share Posted 22 September , 2005 Although the documents you have confirm that your Grandfather served with the 6th South Staffords, the photograph is strange as it appears to contradict this. Although the all of the other pre-war battalions had white facings (1st & 2nd (Regular), 3rd (Special Reserve), 4th (Extra Reserve) and 5th (Territorial Force) Battalions), the 6th Battalion had BLACK facings, recalling their origins as rifle volunteers. The battalion had worn this colour since the adoption of scarlet tunics and it was retained by the 6th Battalion in 1908, having previously been worn by the 3rd (Volunteer) Battalion from which the 6th were created on the formation of the Territorial Force. Could it be of another relative, or of a friend of the family serving with another battalion of the South Staffords? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 22 September , 2005 Share Posted 22 September , 2005 Andrew, I've checked the Territorial Year Book for 1909 and also the Army Lists and it would appear that at sometime the 6th Bn,S.Staffs changed their facings from black to white falling in line with the remainder of the S.Staffs battalions. In my collection I have two 1909 pattern tunics to the 4th Bn,N/land Fusiliers(T.F.), one in rifle grey with scarlet facings and the other scarlet with gosling green facings. This battalion also had volunteer rifle origins which was continued in it's uniform theme, until around 1910/1911, when they also adopted the scarlet and gosling green of the rest of the regiment. Again a check with the regimental museum would confirm or deny this, but if confirmed would certainly narrow the time frame down. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Evans Posted 22 September , 2005 Share Posted 22 September , 2005 Graham, Cheers, I think I will try a visit to the museum as you suggest. The only item that does bear his name and Sgt rank is a marksman trophy that the family has. It bears his name and that of his brother Fred who served during the Boar war I hope to get it out of the loft and post a few pictures of it ASAP Graham, I'm going to the museum tomorrow and will ask on your behalf if you wish. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted 22 September , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 September , 2005 Roy, Sorry for the late post (I've had a day decorating ,Oh joy) If you could ask that would be great thanks. Andrew, Thanks very much for that info. The knowledge you guys have. Graham, That's a good theory about the rifle 'team' Seems that a simple photo can open uyp a whole can of wriggly things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Evans Posted 23 September , 2005 Share Posted 23 September , 2005 Graham, I've taken the piccy to the museum as promised, together with a full copy of this thread. They may well have an answer for when I go again next week. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted 23 September , 2005 Author Share Posted 23 September , 2005 Roy, Many thanks........... Christ, my bar tab is running up At this rate I'll be buying the beer till 2010 Cheers mate. P.S. Hope they don't want the trophy back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Evans Posted 7 October , 2005 Share Posted 7 October , 2005 Graham, I finally got to chat about your photo with my man at the museum yesterday. Whilst nothing is certain, he felt that the picture was probably taken when the men were still in the old 'Volunteer Force', immediately before they became Territorials in 1908. He noted that the guy in the middle was wearing the King's and Queen's South Africa medals and that as your GF was seated, he was probably senior to the guys standing in the back row. My guys thoughts on the Sergeant / Private debate were that he was most likely 'busted' for some reason, something that was quite easy to do! Best I can do I'm afraid. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted 8 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Roy, Thanks for the remider from your PM. I must have been asleep when you posted your reply Cheers for all your efforts Roy, seems that the mystery remains. Errrrr, is the beer on me by any chance See you at BCNO 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Evans Posted 8 October , 2005 Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Roy, Errrrr, is the beer on me by any chance See you at BCNO 3 Graham, You could wipe out your future bar bill at a stroke by doing me a favour in return. The people at the Regt. museum would love a copy of the photo. Would you consider getting a copy for me (I think Jessops would do it very cheaply). The next round would be on me. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted 8 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Roy, Good grief there is a God I will arrange for copies of all the photos I have. I have some photographic printer paper so will have a 'play' at copying them myself, however if they are cr*p I will take the original photo disc into Jessops (or similar) and give them to you at the meeting. Seems I may not have to take out a Barclayloan for your bar tab after all First beer however remains on me. Cheers Roy, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Evans Posted 8 October , 2005 Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Roy, Good grief there is a God I will arrange for copies of all the photos I have. I have some photographic printer paper so will have a 'play' at copying them myself, however if they are cr*p I will take the original photo disc into Jessops (or similar) and give them to you at the meeting. Seems I may not have to take out a Barclayloan for your bar tab after all First beer however remains on me. Cheers Roy, Good man, I seem to remember from somewhere that computer printed 'photographs' only last for about 2 years, but I don't know where I got that from. If you can manage a 'Jessops' type print I'd be happy to cover costs. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted 8 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Roy, Have been playing with my photo paper and printer but the results are not good. Printer is running low on coal I think I will do the decent thing and take my disc to Jessops. Don't worry about any costs mate it is the very least I can do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Evans Posted 8 October , 2005 Share Posted 8 October , 2005 Roy, Have been playing with my photo paper and printer but the results are not good. Printer is running low on coal I think I will do the decent thing and take my disc to Jessops. Don't worry about any costs mate it is the very least I can do Cheers Graham, That's what makes this forum the best. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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