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Remembered Today:

213 th Sqdn /Ibison


Guest Local authorities Wielsbeke
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Guest Local authorities Wielsbeke

Good afternoon,

Does anyone know something about Karl George Ibison (2nd LT, 213th Sqdn, KIA 04/10/1918) or about the sqdn or about the loss of this plane ? Are there any pictures available ?

Thanks a lot

Guy

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Guy,

2Lt IBISON was 19 yeras old when he was dowend on 4/10/1918 in a Sopwith Camel;

He was the won of James George and lOuise IBISON, 79 Eastbourne RD? bIRKD

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Guy

2Lt K G Ibison was flying Sopwith Camel D9601 when he was killed in action on 4 October 1918. He was last seen over Roulers at 1600.

I hope this helps you

Gareth

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Guest Local authorities Wielsbeke
Guy,

2Lt IBISON was 19 yeras old when he was dowend on 4/10/1918 in a Sopwith Camel;

He was the won of James George and lOuise IBISON, 79 Eastbourne RD? bIRKD

Thanks a lot but are there no other details available ? Who claimed this victory, where was 213th Sqdn airfield ? etc .

Good weekend,

Guy

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Sorry Guy,

New try

2lt. IBISON was the son of James and Louise IBISON, 79 Eastbourne Road, Birkdale, Southport.

He was 19 years old when he was shot down in a Sopwith Camel.(nr.D9601)

213 Squadron was former 13 Naval Squadron.

During the last months of the war, the 213 Sqn undertook a lot of ground attack work.

I am sure other members of the Forum will be able to give You more info.

Regards,

Cnock.

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213sqn was based at Bergues. and were part of 61 wing 5 group. They were formed in January 1918 and had been the St Pol Defence Sqn.

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Guy

There's no claim by a German fighter unit that matches 2Lt Ibison in D9601. It's likely that he was brought down by ground fire - No 213 Sqn lost another Camel, F3965, flown by Lt A F Chick, to a direct hit by Anti-Aircraft fire at 1624 on 4 October 1918. It's probable that Lt Chick was on the same patrol as 2Lt Ibison. Lt Chick wasn't injured and F3965 was repaired and then issued to No 471 Flight; it was eventually struck off on 21 February 1919.

Gareth

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Guest Local authorities Wielsbeke
Guy

There's no claim by a German fighter unit that matches 2Lt Ibison in D9601.  It's likely that he was brought down by ground fire - No 213 Sqn lost another Camel, F3965, flown by Lt A F Chick, to a direct hit by Anti-Aircraft fire at 1624 on 4 October 1918.  It's probable that Lt Chick was on the same patrol as 2Lt Ibison.  Lt Chick wasn't injured and F3965 was repaired and then issued to No 471 Flight; it was eventually struck off on 21 February 1919.

Gareth

Gareth,

Is there something you don't know about the RFC ? You are a library on your own ! Thanks a lot for the information and previous things I've asked you (about the other pilots at the churchyard in Wielsbeke/Sint-Baafs-Vijve).

Now something else, was german ground fire so accurate that they could bring down two planes or is this what you can call good old luck ?

Was LT Chick's airplane hit near Roulers (Roeselare) ?

Thanks a lot

Guy

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Guy

Thanks for the compliment. In answer, there's an enormous amount that I don't know about the war in the air.

According to the reference books I looked at, 2Lt Ibison's D9601 was last seen over Roulers/Roeselare at 1600. This suggests that the formation he was flying in was broken up, perhaps by enemy action or weather, and the members may have lost sight of each other. Either that or he just dropped out of the formation and wasn't seen again.

I thought that D9601 might have been brought down by ground fire (either Anti-Aircraft Artillery or machine gun/rifle fire from troops on the ground) as there was no confirmed claim by a German fighter pilot. 2Lt Ibotson could have been shot down by a German whose claim wasn't confirmed. Though, with the evidence of a crashed Camel to justify the claim, this seems rather unlikely. Of course, he may have met his end through another means, including engine or structural failure, 'friendly' fire from another Allied aircraft, accidentally flying into something on the ground, etc. We'll probably never know.

Lots of Allied [and Central Powers] aeroplanes were lost to ground fire, though direct hits by AA weren't all that common. As Cnock said in his earlier post, by the later stages of the War Camels spent a lot of their time attacking targets on the ground, which brought them into effective range of the German Infantry.

I don't think that Lt Chick in F3965 could have been near Roulers/Roeselare when he was hit; he must have been somewhere close enough to the Allied front line to be able to make it over the front to safe territory, as his Camel was recovered and repaired.

Although this is unrelated to 2Lt Ibison and D9601, I thought I'd try to round off the discussion on No 213 Sqn over Roulers/Roeselare on 4 October by mentioning that the unit had a morning battle with German aircraft in the area. Lt William George Upton was flying D3341 when he was killed in action north-west of Roulers/Roeselare during combat with 20 enemy machines. Possibly during the same fight, Capt Colin Peter Brown in D8177 was credited with 3 Fokker D.VIIs over the Rumbeke area at around 0930 - they were the 12th, 13th and 14th victories credited to him, and his last during the War.

I hope this is interesting.

Gareth

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  • 2 weeks later...

Karl George Ibison was my great Uncle, son of James George Ibison (born in Lancashire) and Louise Rosine Wagelein (his German wife, born in Stuttgart).

I've a copy of his service record (he had about 7 hours flying experience before being sent to active service).

His grave picture, a picture of his plane and Karl in unifrom are all attached.

His death is also commemorated in the War Commission listings.

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It looks like 2Lt Karl Ibison was one of the many Great War airmen who were sent out to fly and fight without anywhere near enough training.

Gareth

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Guest Local authorities Wielsbeke
Karl George Ibison was my great Uncle, son of James George Ibison (born in Lancashire) and Louise Rosine Wagelein (his German wife, born in Stuttgart).

I've a copy of his service record (he had about 7 hours flying experience before being sent to active service).

His grave picture, a picture of his plane and Karl in unifrom are all attached.

His death is also commemorated in the War Commission listings.

Good afternoon,

It's unbelievable that men with very few experience were sent to the front. Each year whe hold a little ceremony (on the 11th of november) with our local authories. Last year we've wondered if we couldn't find more information about those men (one at the churchyard in Sint-Baafs-Vijve (your great uncle) and three at the churchyard in Wielsbeke. For this far I've mentionned to get more information. I appreciate all the men who gave me more background during the last year. Up till now I've :

1) 2 nd Lieutenant Corbishley : photograph and very detailed background information

2) Lieutenant Rickards : probably photograph (group of officers from 57th squadron) : not confirmed yet

3) Second Lieutenant Skeffington : probably on the same photograph as Lt Rickards and Corbishley : not confirmed yet

4) LT AC Mallach : survived the crash, taken POW, no information (did he survive the war) but probably on the same photograph as other pilots/observers

4) About the incident on the 28/07/1917 : very detailed information and confirmation (German eyewitnesses at Ingelmunster and claim of German pilots)

Honest, about KG Ibison, I 've thought that this was a "lost" case. No enemy claims, no confirmation in german infantry records. I'm very pleased that someone can help us further. Is it possible to have access to the documents ?

thanks in advance

Guy

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Guy

I'd be glad to send you the documents and photos by e-mail. Are the men you describe part of the same squadron? If so, I'd like to learn more about them. My e-mail address is peter.ibison@bt.com. Do let me know your e-mail address so that I can send the photos. Service rcord to follow later once I've scanned in.

Peter

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Guest Local authorities Wielsbeke

Peter,

Thanks a lot for the pictures.

On the picture of the plane there's a serial number D? 7052. I don't know the type of plane this was (Sopwith ?). Can anyone help ?

Thanks

Guy

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  • 1 month later...
Guest Local authorities Wielsbeke

Hello,

Is it possible that Carl Degelow had something to see with the crash of Karl Ibison ? Has anyone access to the memoirs of Carl Degelow ? If so, what's in the memoirs about the 4th october 1918 ?

Thanks

Guy

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Guy

Do you have the facility to post the picture of the plane on this site? I ran into technical difficulties. Maybe when others see the plane, a positive identification can be made.

Peter

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Guest Söderbaum

Hi

Ibison was with certainty claimed by a German pilot, his name seems to be mentioned in the victory report...

He was apparently shot down by Lt dR Willy Rosenstein as his 7th victory (chronically).

More information is in an article in C&C (US) Vol 25/4 from 1984. The author (Robert B Gill) have the access to the victory report. However he dont cite the victory report in detail...

Gunnar

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Hi,

I have a copy of the Memoirs of Major Carl Degelow "Germany's last Knight of the air"-and in it he says of the 4th Oct 1918-

We were not so lucky the following day , however : we got into a low level running fight with a squadron of Sopwith Camels and even though Leutnant Rosentein and I each got one down, one of the Englishmen managed to get above one of the newer pilots, Unteroffizier Paul Podbiol and shoot him down.

The authors ref next to this was: This encounter apperas to have been with elements of No 65 Squadron RAF. 2/LT SJ Hill failed to return from that mission and 2/LT WH Bland shot down Podbiel.

How that helps.

Rob

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Guest Söderbaum

Hi Rob

Robert B Gill states that we can rule out 65 sq because of the victory report from Rosenstein....so likely is Ibision named or his s/n given in the report...

Gunnar

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Not so fast Guy,

What the final outcome that solved the case please.

Rob

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