1/5 Seaforth Highlanders

[Jock Bruce]

Feel free to ask

Jock Bruce

[Chris_Baker]

I'm going to be really awkward now, Jock.

A chap I'm researching started out with 1/4th, and finished up with 1/6th, Seaforths. He won a MM in August 1917, and was killed a few days later in early September. He was 202599 John Alexander Hardie. Do you know of any specific reason why - and any dates when - a man might transfer from 1/4th to 1/6th? Also any other clues offered by his number?

[Jock Bruce]

Chris,

have you by chance got the order of battalions back-to-front ?

CWGC & SDitGW both have him as 1/4 at death, and 202xxx is from the allocation to 4 Seaforth.

Combined with the fact he was from Elgin, which is 6th Seaforth country, it would seem more likely he served first in the 6th and then went to the 4th.

All that I can say from the number is the obvious, that he was serving in 4th Seaforth by the time of the early 17 renumbering.

The fact that is shown as enlisting at Fort George suggests an enlistment sometime after mid-15ish - before that Seaforth TF guys are usually shown as having enlisted at the respective TF battalion depot or their local drill station. But that is a generalisation. And remember he could have been a guy who had already served, left the TF on termination of his engagement and then re-enelisted.

The one published source that might contain help is the 'Morayshire Roll of Honour' - I don't have a copy but I know there is somebody on the forum who has access to one. I'll flag up this thread to him.

Jock

[Malcolm]

1/4th or 1/6th the divisional history gives:

"On 20th August the GOC 51st Division assumed command of the left sector of the XVIII Corps front, the 152nd Brigade having taken over the line. The trench area was situated some half a mile away from the remains of the village of Langemarck and just east of the Langemarck-Gheluvelt road, the Divisional frontage being about 1500 yards in Breadth.

The Division continued holding this line until 20th September, whenan attack was launched."

(Menin Road Ridge)

This period was remarkable on account of three things. First, the mud, second lavish use by the enemy of mustard gas causing some casualties, third was great activity in aerial bombing, which the Germans suddenly developed. In consequence , both men and horses suffered a number of casualties from bombing, paricularly in the rest camps. On one occasion alone three bombs caused 32 casualties.

Aye

Malcolm

[Chris_Baker]

John definitely won his MM with the 6th - he is mentioned in the war diary.

I guess it's possible that he transferred from 6th to 4th in the short time between winning his MM and being killed. That would certainly explain the 4th Bn reference at CWGC/SDGW.

[Jock Bruce]

Chris,

next time I'm in the PRO (not for a couple of weeks) I'll dig out the medal roll and see what sequence of bns is given for this guy.

Jock

[James Brown]

Jock

I have a few men in my Ayrshire list who were 1/5th Btn Seaforth Highlanders, all were KIA on the 9th of April 1917. The first battle of the Scarpe, 9th to the 14th April 1917, Arras Offensive. I know they were part of 51st Highland Division.

Could you please tell me the movements of the 1/5th Btn the night before and during that date?

Thanks

James Brown

[brownag]

Chris

The Morayshire Roll of Honour for John Alexander Hardie is as follows:

"No. 235002 Private 1/6th Seaforth Highlanders; born at Elgin 21st Jan. 1898; joined at Elgin 31st Oct. 1916; served in France; died of wounds at 47 Casualty Clearing Station, France 3rd September 1917; awarded Military Medal 31st July 1917. Son of George and Margaret Hardie, Birkenhill, Elgin. Occupation, carpenter."

Jock is the expert on Seaforth T.F. enlistments so he'll probably put me right on this (thanks for the tip-off on this thread by the way Jock) but I'd say his enlistment date may probably be the clue to his service in the 4th Bn. - if it is the 4th Bn and not the 1/4th Bn. Since it is late 1916, is it the 4th Reserve Training Battalion rather than the 1/4th (Ross Highland) Bn you mean?

The 4th Reserve was the amalgamated unit formed from the old 3/4th, 3/5th and 3/6th Bns This would explain how he enlisted in Morayshire and died up in a Morayshire unit and also served in a 4th Bn. Jock may also be able to explain the difference in numbers between his death and his entry in the Morayshire RoH.

Over to you Jock!

Cheers

Adam

[Chris_Baker]

Thank you for the most useful quote from the Roll of Honour, Adam. Brilliant.

However, it throws up a mystery. His number according to the medal entitlement docs, CWGC, etc is not 235002 but 202599!

Jock, Hardie's MIC gives no battalion. The Roll of the BWM/VM says just 4/Bn. In sequence down the page it goes

202590 - 4/Bn

202593 - 4/Bn

202595 - 4/Bn

202596 - 4/Bn

202598 - 2/Bn

202599 - 4/Bn (this is Hardie, no mention of 6/Bn)

202600 - 6/Bn

202601 - 6/Bn and 2/Bn

202602 - 7/Bn

202603 - 4/Bn

202604 - 5/Bn

202605 - 4/Bn and 6/Bn.

[Chris_Baker]

And a question. The Morayshire Roll of Honour - is it a book, memorial, scroll...what?

[Jock Bruce]

Chris,

it's a book and it has some imperfections since it was compiled from information supplied by men or their families - I seem to recall there is a bit in it that explains the mechanics of how the info was gathered.

The different number is odd. I've seen men in the MROH described as Seaforths with totally wrong numbers for the regiment - usually these turn out to be transfers to MGC or Lab Corps numbers but the bio only mentions service in the Seaforth. Not the case here and to add to the fun 235002 is from the 4th's allocation ...

I supposed you've tried for his service papers ?

Jock

[James Brown]

Jock

Thanks for the information. Great Help.

Regards

James

[brownag]

Here is a copy of the part of the introduction to the 'The Morayshire Roll of Honour' which describes how it was compiled:

"It is desirable to place on record the means by which this volume has been compiled. At a meeting of Representatives appointed by the County Council of Morayshire and the Town Councils of the Burghs within the County, held at Elgin on 25th November, 1918, it was resolved to prepare a Roll of Honour for Morayshire “so that future generations might know the part that the County had borne in the War.” A circular asking for personal details was issued, signed by the Convener of the County, Mr. G. R. Mackessack, and the County Clerk, Mr. E. D. Jameson, and it was arranged

That the proposed Roll of Honour should not supersede in any way or interfere with County, Parish, or other Memorials.

That the Roll of Honour should be as comprehensive as possible, and should include:

(1) Persons born in Morayshire, whether enlisted through a local, imperial, or colonial Force.

(2) Persons born elsewhere, but who had settled in Morayshire prior to the outbreak of the War, or prior to their joining up.

(3) Persons who at any time were long connected with the County, but had since left the County and enlisted elsewhere.

That the Roll of Honour should consist essentially of all persons who had trained for service and gone abroad, including Labour Battalions and Nurses—special cases to be specially dealt with—but that a Supplementary List might be made up of those with approved service at home, including V.A.D. Nurses, but excluding Volunteers and National Guards.

It was resolved to ask Mr. John B. Mair, Chief Constable, with the aid of the Constabulary and Special Constables, to collect the necessary particulars. Mr. Mair in a letter to his officers throughout the county said he” considered it an honour to be entrusted with this work” and hoped that each member of the force would give his time and attention to make this Roll of Honour as complete as possible. Officers in charge of stations were required to divide their beats into small sub-areas and by the co-operation of special constables arrange for the delivery and collection of the forms. These were filled in and returned by the end of February, 1919. By this organisation all the households of the county have been reached and the details verified by officers on the spot. Mr. Mair carried through the work with rare enthusiasm and devotion to detail, and it has been a labour of love to him and his assistants to endeavour to make the returns complete, for the honour of the County. It is with pleasure that I put on record the services that Mr. Mair has given so willingly to the compilation of this Roll. Some omissions may unwittingly have been made, and it has been difficult to get at others whose friends have left, the county, but the precaution was taken to send proofs of the Roll to lie in each burgh and parish for examination by anyone interested, so that residents of the county must blame themselves if any of their friends have suffered through error or omission. In all, more than 7,500 forms have been dealt with, and it has been no light task to edit the information they conveyed and put it into concise and consecutive order as a brief biography of each person alphabetically arranged. To produce such a large and unique volume at the nominal price charged for it was impossible. But appeals were made to the public and subscription lists opened throughout the county which met with a liberal response. This has enabled the Committee to achieve their aim and offer the Roll of Honour at such a price, that no family, however poor, may be unable to obtain a copy."

I thought I'd also just add here the editor's final words from his intoduction:

"We are apt to overlook the thoughts of the dying. We may surmise, but little do we know the feelings and the agonies of many a poor fellow as be lay wounded on a foreign battle-field, far from home and kin—many a devoted mother’s son, of whom the only legend that remains is a little wooden cross “Somewhere in France.” But his fellows who saw their comrades fall must have known something of all this. Yet they never gave in. They developed a cool, imperturbable spirit that did not pale before a probable fate. A distinguished General recently said "Forty-eight hours ago I was motoring across the Somme battlefield when I saw an old post lying at the foot of a trench. Everything else in that shattered region had disappeared but the inscription it “bore strangely enough survived—'All pessimists will be shot.’ ”

It was this spirit of cheerful devotion and confidence that made it possible for our countrymen to face every trial, and emerge victorious in the end. And as they fought side by side on the field of battle, what could be more fitting than that their names should stand side by side without precedence of rank or position—the living and the dead—in the Roll of Honour? There are other local Memorials—monuments of stone erected in public places—testimonies of our county’s gratitude—but I venture to say that no memorial will be more prized than this Roll of Honour, which brings a personal touch within the homes of the County that could not be so well supplied by any other means. It is the practical outcome of an excellent idea that does credit to those who conceived it. We all remember the familiar device which did service so often during the period of enlistment. It represented the little boy in after years asking of his father, “And what did you do, Daddie, in the Great War?” The answer is here supplied. Each man who responded to his country’s call can simply point to his name in the Morayshire Roll of Honour—a silent yet eloquent testimony to his own and his children’s children."

[Chris_Baker]

Thank you, brownaq. That is really very useful, and most interesting.

[Patrick H]

Hi, is there any mention of Lt Douglas Renton. Sorry I dont know what Battalion or indeed what happended to him

Many thanks

Patrick

[Malcolm]

Thank you for the most useful quote from the Roll of Honour, Adam. Brilliant.

However, it throws up a mystery. His number according to the medal entitlement docs, CWGC, etc is not 235002 but 202599!

Jock, Hardie's MIC gives no battalion. The Roll of the BWM/VM says just  4/Bn. In sequence down the page it goes

202590 - 4/Bn

202593 - 4/Bn

202595 - 4/Bn

202596 - 4/Bn

202598 - 2/Bn

202599 - 4/Bn (this is Hardie, no mention of 6/Bn)

202600 - 6/Bn

202601 - 6/Bn and 2/Bn

202602 - 7/Bn

202603 - 4/Bn

202604 - 5/Bn

202605 - 4/Bn and 6/Bn.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Scottish National Memorial ( www.snwm.org ) agrees Chris.

Surname HARDIE

Firstname John

Service number 202599

Date of death 03/09/1917

Decoration M.M.

Place of birth Elgin

Other 4th Bn.

SNWM roll THE SEAFORTH HIGHLANDERS

Rank Pte

Theatre of death F.& F.

Aye

Malcolm

[jabs]

Feel free to ask

Jock Bruce

Hi jock,

Wonder whether you can help me with the description "seaforth highlanders 4th depot";as this is what is on my grandfathers mic and I cant find any reference to it anywhere.He was previously shown as with the argyll and sutherland highlanders, according to his mic.

Any help greatly appreciated thanks,

regards, john