J R R Tolkien

[the gunners dream]

I apologise if this is the wrong part of the forum for this, but please humour me!

I am looking at buying a book about Tolkien's experiences in WWI. I'm looking at this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...9172587-6166814

It seems to me that Tolkien was greatly affected by the Great War, especially when most of his friends from the Tea Club and Barrovian Society were killed, 2 on the Somme for a start.

So, I would like to know if any of you out there have read the book and secondly, what your opinions are of Tolkien's life in the trenches and what he brought out of there to make the the saga of LOR?

Are there any documents out there already that I can read to whet my whistle?

Many thanks,

Steve

[Coldstreamer]

Steve

What an in depth question ! Wish I had an answer for you.

Would the hobbits have been TOO short for the bantams ?

Ian

So, I would like to know if any of you out there have read the book and secondly, what your opinions are of Tolkien's life in the trenches and what he brought out of there to make the the saga of LOR?

[James Brown]

Steve-'s2

I havn't read the book, but I've loved the LOR since I first read it many moons ago.

I used to think that the Orc's were the like the German-Austro armies casting their dark shadow across Western Europe.....then the daydream would end.........Saroman as the Kaiser??????

Don't know about that.

Or what character do you think he seen as himself?

James

Edited 5 September , 2005 by James Brown

[jdajd]

For any one with an interest in Tolkien and the Great War it is definitely a very good read although one should not expect a history of Tolkiens brief involvement in the war. It is really more of a biography of Tolkien. There are only about 30-40 pages that deal directly with his time in France. The rest of the book is devoted to his up-bringing and writing. I do not remember getting any great insites into his writing in terms of the influence the war had on it. Having said this, I thoroughly enjoyed the book just in terms of the evolution of his writing from his early days writing about faeries through the creation of the mythology and language behind the Silmarillion and eventually the Ring cycle. Worth picking up.

Jon

[frev]

Steve

I haven't read the book you are after - but I thought you might be interested in the following extract from "J.R.R. Tolkien, a biography" by H. Carpenter:

"These old campaigners were ready to take advantage of any slip made by a recruit, and Tolkien reported that they treated him like an inferior schoolboy. He had more respect for the 'men', the N.C.O.'s and privates who made up the other eight hundred or so members of the battalion. ............................. Officers could not make friends among them, for the system did not permit it; but each officer had a batman, a servant who was detailed to look after his kit and care for him much in the manner of an Oxford scout. Through this, Tolkien got to know several of the men very well. Discussing one of the principal characters in The Lord of the Rings he wrote many years later: 'My "Sam Gamgee" is indeed a reflexion of the English soldier, of the privates and batmen I knew in the 1914 war, and recognised so far superior to myself.' "

I read the biography in the 1980's, so I'm afraid I can't remember whether it would give you more insight into what else went into the LOTR from his war experiences. But I'd think the war would have had a huge impact on his writing.

Cheers, Frev

[the gunners dream]

Thanks all for posting your views so far. They definintely help.

Frev,

I've always thought of Sam as a sort of assistant to Frodo and that biography piece you posted helps to put it in the picture.

I'm sure I read somewhere that Tolkien's love of language, especially in the invention of the language used in LOR came from his initial use of codes in WWI?

Can anyone spread any light on that?

Steve

[Stebie9173]

There was a Topic on codes and cyphers relating to Tolkien, not so long ago.

 

First time I've searched for "Moon Runes" on this forum.

Steve.

[truthergw]

I apologise if this is the wrong part of the forum for this, but please humour me!

So, I would like to know if any of you out there have read the book and secondly, what your opinions are of Tolkien's life in the trenches and what he brought out of there to make the the saga of LOR?

Steve

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If my memory serves me well, and it seldom does, Tolkien always denied that LOTR was based on his war experiences. That being said, it is hard to read descriptions of bodies in flooded shell-holes and not connect them to the marshes crossed by Frodo and Sam. Some of Frank Richards descriptions could have been cribbed from Tolkien. I think he was more deeply affected than he admitted, perhaps more deeply than he realised?

[frev]

I'm sure I read somewhere that Tolkien's love of language, especially in the invention of the language used in LOR came from his initial use of codes in WWI?

Can anyone spread any light on that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Steve

I believe it was the other way around.

Tolkien's love of language stemmed from his College days (if not earlier). He had been working on his 'fairy language' (which was influenced by the Finnish language) long before the war broke out.

It wasn't until early 1916 that he "decided to specialise in signalling, for the prospect of dealing with words, messages and codes was more appealing than the drudgery and responsibility of commanding a platoon." [from the Biography by H.C.]

The seeds for the creation of a mythology - ie. LOTR were also sewn in Tolkien's mind before the war - but I too believe that his war experiences would have had a great influence on his ability to create such 'darkness'.

I can see I'm going to have to bring the re-reading of his biography close to the top of my 'to read pile'. I don't know whether to thank you for that - or not!

Cheers, Frev.

[the gunners dream]

Steve

I believe it was the other way around.

Tolkien's love of language stemmed from his College days (if not earlier).  He had been working on his 'fairy language' (which was influenced by the Finnish language) long before the war broke out.

It wasn't until early 1916 that he "decided to specialise in signalling, for the prospect of dealing with words, messages and codes was more appealing than the drudgery and responsibility of commanding a platoon."  [from the Biography by H.C.]

The seeds for the creation of a mythology - ie. LOTR were also sewn in Tolkien's mind before the war - but I too believe that his war experiences would have had a great influence on his ability to create such 'darkness'.

I can see I'm going to have to bring the re-reading of his biography close to the top of my 'to read pile'.  I don't know whether to thank you for that - or not!

Cheers, Frev.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Frev,

Apologies for that! My pile gets bigger and bigger every day!

Thanks everyone for replying. I think I'll add the book to my ever growing pile.

Steve

[spike10764]

I think you really have to be interested in Tolkien to enjoy this book. I must admit the title swung me (in the local library-so I didn't have to risk forking out cash). The main part of the book I found very hard going-as I'm not really a Tolkien fan- lots of explanations about the evolution of 'Faerie' and Tolkiens love of language.

Very little about the Great War-which (alright I'm shallow) was what I picked it up for. Kinda felt the title was a bit of a "film show hook"( you know the film trailers where you discover the trailer which promised a great film had the ONLY good bits in it ) Big TOLKIEN AND THE GREAT WAR The Threshold of Middle Earth when perhaps it should have been Tolkien and the Great War THE THRESHOLD OF MIDDLE EARTH.

I'm sure it's great if you are a Tolkien fan, just not for me.

[Guest]

In his foreward to Lord of the Rings, Tolkein refers to the Great War briefly and tells us that "all" his friends died, but he also refers to the formative experiences of his boyhood. The book itself was written between 1936 and 1949, with long breaks during this time. As Tolkein points out, he was busy with other things too.

To me, the book starts of very much where The Hobbit, very much a childrens' book in my opinion, leaves off, but darkens in the writing. Tolkein himself denied that he was influenced by WWII, but I think that on one level he was and I think that the rise of fascism, followed by the years when a British defeat must have seemed like a real possibility, followed by the years leading to victory had an influence. I do not mean that he was actually writing WWII, but that it was an influence.

Sorry, but I do not read anything of the Great War in his work.

[Stebie9173]

I saw a documentary on Tolkien before the Fellowship of the Ring came out at the Cinema (hosted by Toyah Wilcox!) that traced a lot of the places and characters back to his childhood (even the two towers, one of which I believe was a water tower in Birmingham!)

I agree with tom in that I've always equated the Dead Marshes with WW1.

Steve.

[J T Gray]

I have always found the foreword bizarre, with the miller whose name "was not Sandyman".

Having Sandeman/Sandiman/Sandyman ancestors probably has a lot to do with my curiosity, mind...

Adrian

[Terry_Reeves]

Tolkien is believed to have been influenced by his childhood years in Birmingham. The Twin Towers may be based on Perrot's Folly and the nearby Victorian Water Tower at Edgebaston Waterworks.

The Shire may have been influenced by his early home at Sarehole, then in the countryside, now encompassed by Mosely. Sarehole Mill, which Tolkien knew as a child, is still standing and open to the public. It is possible that Mosely Bog, now a nature reserve, appeared in his novels as the Old Forest.

Sam Gamgee was possibly based on a real person ; Birmingham Surgeon Dr Joseph Gamgee, the inventor of "Gamgee's Lint", now known as cotton wool. But who knows.

Terry Reeves

[Alastair Fraser]

I have never been a great fan of "Lord of the Rings" having had at least three attempts at it in my teens when it was pretty much expected of everybody. I am reading "Tolkien and the Great War" at present and it is an excellent book. Strangely I am now coming at Tolkien from a different direction, using the book as a source of information on Thiepval Wood where No-mans-land and the Somme Association have been excavating. Tolkien was in the wood with 11th Lancashire Fusiliers in the autumn of 1916 and a pretty grim place it was. He seems to indicate that none of the ideas were put down on paper when he was in the line but I think it must have been a background element.

Oddly as we were heading towards the wood last October on a dark night with the rain lashing down I could just see the Ulster Tower outlined against the sky with a single light on at the top in Teddy and Phoebie's flat and thought "this looks like something out of Lord of the Rings". At that point I had no idea of Tolkien's presence in that area. I wonder if he ever returned and saw the Tower in similar circumstances?

Regards

Alastair Fraser

[DaveBrigg]

There is an extract from Tolkien, describing the Dead Marches on another thread

His interest in language comes, I think, more from his academic studies than WW1 codes. In his time he was a leading authority on Anglo-Saxon poetry, and his work on 'Beowulf' is still required reading (if you are into that sort of thing, that is)