Defenders of Munich/Franfurt Trench

[cockney tone]

Ladies & Gents,

Pal's,

prior to a 'site visit' later this month and to enhance my understanding of what occured I am doing some background research into the action involving the 16th HLI and 11th Border Regiment at Munich and Frankfurt Trench's on the Somme in November 1916.

Do any of you kind people happen to know what German Regiments they were up against in the area at the time please. Any information will be gratefully received

Thanking you in advance,

Scottie.

[mcderms]

Tone

haven't forgotten the promise to print of the spreadsheet - busy with work and house buying! The guy to talk to about this is RALPH WHITEHEAD... Lovely chap and expert on all things Kaiser-y.

Cheers

Stu

[cockney tone]

Stu,

no problems, I will look forward to receiving the spreadsheet when you are able, if you could possibly manage it before the 20th September I would be forever in your debt as I am doing a talk on the battle the following weekend.

I will give Ralph a day or two to read this thread then i will start pestering him, good luck with the house buying; a farm on the Somme by any chance?

Regards,

Scottie.

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

Hello Scottie,

I have come across your thread and the question you raise is difficult to answer precisely. Can you tell me if any particular date is being researched? If not, I can say that there were a number of German regiments hoding this portion of theline in the November fighting including some that fought on 1 July 1916.

From what I can tell there were units from four German divisions in the line: 12th, 208th, 233rd and 26th Reserve Division. The regiments include IR 185, IR 169, IR 173, RIR 121, IR 144, IR 23 and possibly more. I do have some of the regimental accounts and some do have maps that are useful in placing units on the field. Still, I feel that some are a bit optimistic when showing their men holding specific sections when in fact it was possible they had no true idea of where they were to any exact notion.

Many of the units were badly mauled in the fighting and units were mixed together in a variety of small actions. I believe that it was IR 185 that was involved in locating and capturing a group of British soldeirs that had become trapped during the attack, were these from either of your units?

Any particular dates or details would be appreciated.

Ralph

[cockney tone]

Ralph,

thanks for the contact, I am actually researching the attack by the 32nd Division which started on 18th November 1916, in particular I would like to know what German Force would have been involved in dealing with the 16th HLI and 11th Border Regiment (and some other British Stragglers) who were cut off in Frankfurt Trench (Frankfort Trench in some accounts) and kept the German troops at bay until they finally surrended to them on 25th November.

It may well be the Regiment you mention IR 185, (What does IR mean please?)

I would be grateful for any info whatsoever, including casualties for the action,

Thank you in advance,

Regards,

Scottie.

[spike10764]

It may well be the Regiment you mention IR 185, (What does IR mean please?)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Scottie,

I.R. Infantry Regiment, R.I.R = Reserve Infantry Regiment (although I think it's spelled Infanterie).

Munich and Frankfort trenches-

A good book on the subject would be Redan Ridge: Battleground - WW1

Michael Renshaw, according to a friend of mine whose Great Uncle was an 11th Border soldier killed in this area 18th Nov 1916. (Slighly out of my scope(see signature) at present I'm afraid, still researching July 1st at Leipzig Redoubt myself).

[cockney tone]

Spike,

thanks for the info on 'IR' and I have ordered a copy of the Redan Ridge book.

Good luck with your research on the Leipzig Redoubt, I have an interest in the Borders as my Grandad was in the 1st Border serving in the Boer War until he was wounded and returned home and invalided out of the Service.

thanks again,

Regards,

Scottie.

[Jack Sheldon]

As Ralph has correctly said this was a thoroughly confused situation. In the relevant area, the Battle of the Ancre opened with units of the 12th Infantry Division holding the line, with IR 23 covering sub-sectors H1 - H4 ( by the way the 'H' stands for Heidenkopf). The 12th Division was very under strength before it even arrived in the area in late October 1916, lost more men before battle was joined and took serious casualties during the early fighting. During the night 15-16 November, the 12th Division was relieved by 208th Infantry Division (IR 25, RIR 65 and IR 185). But the situation was complicated by the fact that numerous companies from assorted regiments from 12th Division and 26th Reserve Division were also holding particular parts of a line that had obviously had to be propped up in an emergency manner. Nevertheless, having looked hard at the various histories and other accounts of the action, I am inclined to think that Ralph is correct when he identified IR 185 as the most probable unit to have been involved against 16 HLI, certainly towards the end of the epic.

The history of 'Das Grossherzoglich Badische Infanterie-Regiment Nr 185' [Grand Ducal Infantry Regiment 185 from Baden (South West Germany)] is laid out in diary form. This passage appears under 24 November 1916.

'The British Nest [of Resistance] Episode.

This episode shows how difficult it was to fight in a monotonous cratered landscape, whose shape changed hourly. Trench lines could no longer be made out, dugouts were hard to spot and orientation was extraordinarily difficult. On 18th November, British troops who had broken through in a strength of approximately two companies had occupied good dugouts, whose existence was not known to the Regiment, about 300 metres in rear of the German front line. Initially they remained hidden by day and took passing individuals prisoner until, on 23rd, they were discovered by a patrol from 12th Company, which was searching the area for British stragglers. They had even succeeded in making contact with their own troops by means of a gap in the German front line, which had been kept open by [british] aircraft. As a result a failed attempt was made on 23rd to liberate them.

Once the 'Nest' was discovered, 3rd Battalion IR 185 took immediate steps to deal with them, without knowledge of their strength, however. As a result on 24th a 13 man patrol under Leutnant Geppert from 12th Company IR 185 worked its way forward to a dugout, capturing a machine gun, but being forced to pull back in the face of these strong enemy forces, having taken casualties. An attack during the afternoon failed, because the 10th Company, which was cooperating, missed the objective. The 5th Company IR 185 also failed on the morning of 25th November. In the meantime the British had become worn down and offered no resistance during the afternoon when an energetic attack was launched by 7th, 9th, 11th and 12th Companies IR 185.

Four officers and 160 men were taken prisoner, along with a machine gun, which could have caused an enormous amount of damage if intitiative had been shown, for example, during the attack on 23rd November. Ten German prisoners were freed. The Army High Command honoured the Regiment on 26th November by mentioning its deeds in its report for that day.'

If you compare that slightly threadbare account with the much more detailed one in Michael Renshaw's Battleground Europe book, the similarities are there to see. Inevitably both sides put the best gloss on things, but it seems clear at least that one of the reasons the HLI hung on as long as they did was because all the uncertainties and lack of information came together to mean that the Germans took a long time to realise what was happening and a properly coordinated attack by IR 185 was a long time coming.

Jack

[cockney tone]

Jack,

what can I possibly say apart from " a thousand thank you's" this is really priceless information and really starts to fill in the story that I am building. I already have the 16th HLI Batt Diary and to have a copy of a German account really starts to put things in perspective.

Thank you once again, I am very grateful on this thread to not only you Jack but Stu, Ralph and Spike, what would I do without guys such as yourself.,

Regards,

Scottie.

[Jack Sheldon]

It's a pleasure. I am only sorry that I cannot put my hands on a decent published sketch or map which shows the situation at the critical time from the German perspective. If the need remains, then in due course when I go to the archives in Karlsruhe, it is highly probable that an original has survived, along with contemporary accounts. Unfortunataly I have no plans to go anytime soon.

Jack

[cockney tone]

Jack,

I aim to visit the site again next week and I hope to do a small presentation to my party in situ.

If you ever do get your hands on a copy from the archives in due course please remember my interest in the incident.

Thanks once again,

Regards,

Scottie.

[spike10764]

prior to a 'site visit' later this month and to enhance my understanding of what occured I am doing some background research into the action involving the 16th HLI and 11th Border Regiment at Munich and Frankfurt Trench's on the Somme in November 1916.

.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good Luck with the trip.

If you do get the chance to visit Waggon Road Cemetery, Beaumont Hamel, a few moments quiet thought at the grave of Alexander Denholm (grave E1) and I'm sure my mate Vic would be grateful.

Alexander was killed by indirect machine gun fire returning from an attack on Munich Trench (so Vic was told some years ago by a survivor). It may have been an attempt to relieve those who were trapped.

[cockney tone]

Spike,

i intend to try to get to Waggon Road and will certainly pay my respects there if i do.

Would you require a picture of the grave?

Regards,

Scottie.

[spike10764]

Spike,

i intend to try to get to Waggon Road and will certainly pay my respects there if i do.

Would you require a picture of the grave?

Regards,

Scottie.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Scottie,

I wouldn't mind a picture, but don't go out of your way or use up valuable snapping memory on your camera (I'm sure you'll have lots to photograph).

I'm sure Vic would be chuffed to think someone else had spared a thought for Alexander, and I would send him a copy of your pic. If you do get one, just PM me and I'll send you my email address.

Have a good trip

Spike

[mcderms]

Teh two German accounts I have read are very interesting especially in their differences to the British accounts... We have the HLI holding out determinedly against stiff opposition whilst the Germans send a few chaps over to accept the surrender of a few crater-rats. Not sure which is the more accurate but it is true that of the 100? taken prisoner, less than 20 were still on their own two feet.

Personally I love the version in Lyn MacDonalds 'Somme' and would love to know what her sources were!

[cockney tone]

My darling wife always tells me that women do not lie, so therefore I take Lynn Macdonalds account as gospel!

Thank you Lynn for telling the account and therefore prompting me to visit the site and want to find out more.

Scottie.

[Jack Sheldon]

I have had a look through the German literature and come up with yet another version of events. It appears in the history of Reserve Infantry Regiment 15 and another, clearly based on it, is by Hans Henning Freiherr [i.e. Baron] Grote, from his book Somme, published in 1937. Note the date. Anything written after 1933 tends to be suspect. This sort of book was there for a purpose, which had more to do with stiffening the resolve of the Wehrmacht than serving historical objectivity. In addition Grote was not there. He is reporting the story. Anyway out of interest, I offer it without further comment.

'This report by the 169th can be expanded by a sensational episode. As related in the history of RIR 15, a party of British soldiers, comprising a captain, three officers and 110 men, which had broken through, held out as long as eight days between the German First and Second Positions, without initially being noticed or even disturbed. The German regiment first became aware that something was awry, because despite the heavy, but normal, amount of artillery fire, this alone could not account for the noticeably large number of men carrying rations forward who were disappearing. Nobody could explain it, then a rumour began about British troops which had broken through and were located somewhere in the intervening area. It was decided in view of the continuing loss of ration carriers to get to the bottom of this strange situation, because over a protracted period, the constant cold, wet conditions meant that it was unacceptable for the troops to have to hang on with insufficient food and drink.

Patrols were sent out and one of them was lucky enough to discover a nest of Tommies behind the lines, in a place where they must have been for some time. Now it was realised why British aircraft had been spending protracted periods circling above a particular section of trench. The Commanders decied to deal with this nest. An initial attempt failed because it was not possible to find the British on a foggy night. Finally two entire battalions were deployed against the enemy which had infiltrated the position and they succeeded in disarming the little group which had broken in, without having to fight a serious battle. The British were completely exhausted and starving. Apart from the food which they had been able to take from the few captured German ration carriers, they had been completely without rations. The performance of the iron-willed commander of this band of men was all the more remarkable. He was a British captain who, revolver in hand, had forced his men to hang on until this surrender was forced on him, always in the uncertain hope that a fresh British attack would perhaps bring relief.

This minor incident is really symbolic of the battle itself at this time. Enemy ttacks were no longer decided upon by daring decision; instead, born out of near stalemate, they sought to take what could be taken. The assaulting troops were not sacrificing themselves in the pursuit of victory; rather they were being sacrificed, because their commanders could not bring themselves to accept that the battle, with its rapidly disappearing returns, was not going to serve any external purpose, or achieve its strategic aims. It was now suffocating in mud and despair.

Indicative of this was the statement of one of the many prisoners of war which was passed on by RIR 15. According to this, the Colonel of a British regiment had called out to his men at the end of a long inspiring address before the assault of 13 th November, 'This is the final attack! See to it that you capture some ground and that's it for this year.'

I'll tackle the RIR 15 material in another post later.

Jack

[cockney tone]

Jack,

thank you for this account and I very much look forward to reading your account of the RIR 15 material when you get a chance to post it.

I will print of this thread a hopefully read it again tomorrow afternoon somewhere on the Redan Ridge overlooking the Frankfurt Trench area.

Thanks again for your time and trouble,

Regards,

Scottie.

[Jack Sheldon]

This account is taken from the history of 'Das Koeniglich Preussische Reserve Infanterie Regiment Nr 15' pp386-387

'There remains one remarkable incident; one which really typified the end of this long battle. During these days a noticeably large number of men carrying rations disappeared, so the men up front, who who were suffering badly from the wet conditions, had to go without food. The whereabouts of these people was a mystery. Then a rumour started up that they had been grabbed by the Tommies during the pitch black night as they made their way forward. It was said that a thousand Tommies had broken through and that they were occupying a section of trench. Reconnaisance then showed that there was a nest of Tommies between the First and Second Positions - which also explained the endlessly circling British aircraft over one section of trench. The Tommies had to be ejected immediately by means of a night operation. One battalion received the corresponding orders but, under the direction of a guide who apparently knew the area, they stumbled around for eight hours during a rainy night, until eventually the unlucky Gefreiter broke down in tears, declaring that he had no idea where he was. As dawn broke it became clear that the whole group had gone round in circles and had arrived back at their starting point. Now the capture of the Tommies was carefully planned and prepared for the next night but one, when two complete battalions would be used.

Completely surrounded the enemy surrendered before even a hand grenade battle was necessary. There was a captain, three officers and 110 ORs. They had hung on for eight long days, eating only food they had taken from our ration carriers. At the end of their strngth, they wearily dragged themselves past us and into captivity. We watched them, not without high regard. Towards the end the iron willed captain had apparently only prevented them from deserting by threatening them with his revolver. The entire affair was marked by confusion on both sides. One prisoner stated that his colonel had said before the attack,' This is the final effort! Make sure that you capture some ground and that's it for this year!' In fact the battle was extinguished like a burnt out volcano which had spewed out the last of its lava. The expenditure of strength in the mud and the cold was too great. Sickness reached significant proportions and the troops lost their drive.'

It seems to me now that RIR15 and IR 185 were involved to some extent in this. If all the accounts are put together it seems as though IR 185 had a couple of preliminary goes at the HLI and that in the end, both they and RIR 15 were there for the final act.

Jack

[cockney tone]

Jack,

more wonderful information for me to mull over, thank you very much for your time and trouble.

regards,

Scottie.

[Jack Sheldon]

It's a pleasure. We may have squeezed it dry now unless and until someone can get in amongst the records of IR 185, but I will keep my eyes open for you.

Jack

[Hambo]

Scottie

I've got an account in the battalion history of the 16th HLI and a short history of the 11th Borders as well. There is a very good description of the fight in the book "Epic Actions of the First World War" . I also have a list of those captured somewhere which I transcribed about 6 months ago for someone so it might be worth doing a search onder the 16th and the 11th to see what turns up,

In the meantime if you are interested in any particular material drop me a line.

When your at Waggon Road please look up Reg Hamblin who was killed in the attack, I haven't managed to get there for about 18 months

All the best

Hambo

[cockney tone]

Hambo,

thank you for your kind offer, thanks to the previous generosity of other Pal's i have some nice bits including a copy of the 16th Bat HLI Diary.

I would love a copy of the POW list if you could manage it, also a copy of Epic Actions, I did have a copy of that but have stupidly mislaid it.

There appears to be a bit on the 11th Borders on the Forum but would welcome anything you have on their invlovement please.

I would off course wish to reimburse you for any hard copies postage etc if not on the PC.

I was at Waggon Road yesterday but hoping to return on wednesday so will look up Reg Hamblin, is there a family connection?

Best I PM you with my address,

Regards and thanks again.

Scottie.

[AndyR]

Hi

A very old thread - but I too would love a list of the POWs please if anyone has one.

My great uncle was a 2nd Lt with 2nd Inniskillings and was part of the rescue attempt on the 23rd.

The war diary has him killed on 23rd - but the CWGC has him as dying on 4th Dec and originally buried in Pronville German Cemetery.

Most likely he was captured on 23rd, but just possible he is in the list of the POWs.

Thanks

Andy