mavis Posted 3 September , 2005 Share Posted 3 September , 2005 Hello -Hope you can help me pinpoint the likely position with a map of the position of the 1st Battalion Kings Own Royal Lancashire Regiment. My Great Grandfather Frank Elswood number 20134, was killed on the 1st July 1916.He is buried in Sucrerie Military Cemetary which I visited for the first time on Friday. I would like to have a clearer picture of where the battalion actually were on 1st July ,on a modern day map to see how close to sucrerie cemetary he actually was when killed. Can anyone help or -e-mail me an annotated map. a copy of the battalion diary says "the route of the Battalion was as follows:- The track running east of the Camp,across Bertrancourt-Courcelles road,down the valley thence following the white guide posts to Mailly-Sucrerie road,following the Sucrerie Road for 20 yds,turning S.E. along the track marked by the white guide posts to 6th Avenue,along N.side of 6th Avenue,across the sunken road,continuing along 6th Avenue to where Roman Road runs under Serre road,thence turning N>E> following white guide posts to Cheeroh Avenue.Assembly Trenches in neighbourhood of Green Trench & Bow Street.It states that directly the advance commenced the Battalion came under heavy machine gun fire and a large number of casualties occurred before reaching our own front line,with later a large number of casualties being sustained in no mans land from both machine gun & shell fire." Thank you for any help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 4 September , 2005 Share Posted 4 September , 2005 Mavis 1st Bn Kings Own was part of 12 Brigade, 4th Division. On 1st July 1916, it was deployed at the northern end of Redan Ridge, which runs away northwards from Beaumont Hamel. It was in support of 11 Brigade and so went into action as later wave. Elements of it were involved in the attack on the Heidenkopf(Quadrilateral), a salient of the German front line, which jutted out north westwards and was a forward slope position located roughly in the field between Serre Road Nr 2 cemetery and the French memorial chapel. The body of an unknown soldier from this battalion was found during archeological work on the front line trench of a section of the Heidenkopf in October 2003. It is believed that some men from the battalion also penetrated as far as Pendant Copse that day. I recommend strongly that you buy a copy of the Battleground Europe book 'Redan Ridge' by Michael Renshaw, which covers the area very well and will give you all the maps you need. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gunners dream Posted 4 September , 2005 Share Posted 4 September , 2005 Hi Mavis, 2 trench maps of the area, one an overview and one a close up. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gunners dream Posted 4 September , 2005 Share Posted 4 September , 2005 An IGN map of the area. Colincamps is a village about 16 kilometres north of Albert. Sucrerie Military Cemetery is about 3 kilometres south-east of the village on the north side of the road from Mailly-Maillet to Puisieux. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mavis Posted 4 September , 2005 Author Share Posted 4 September , 2005 Mavis 1st Bn Kings Own was part of 12 Brigade, 4th Division. On 1st July 1916, it was deployed at the northern end of Redan Ridge, which runs away northwards from Beaumont Hamel. It was in support of 11 Brigade and so went into action as later wave. Elements of it were involved in the attack on the Heidenkopf(Quadrilateral), a salient of the German front line, which jutted out north westwards and was a forward slope position located roughly in the field between Serre Road Nr 2 cemetery and the French memorial chapel. The body of an unknown soldier from this battalion was found during archeological work on the front line trench of a section of the Heidenkopf in October 2003. It is believed that some men from the battalion also penetrated as far as Pendant Copse that day. I recommend strongly that you buy a copy of the Battleground Europe book 'Redan Ridge' by Michael Renshaw, which covers the area very well and will give you all the maps you need. Jack <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mavis Posted 4 September , 2005 Author Share Posted 4 September , 2005 Thank you so much to both Jack Sheldon and Steve for your detailed replies. I will indeed try to get a copy of the book you mention. The detailed Maps you have included are great too Steve.Am I right in interpreting from Jack's info and these maps that the main area of the Redan Ridge where it was indicated The Battalion would have had main action was in the triangle of land shown on the IGN Map as "Les Trous a L'eau". Sucrerie seems a far way away fromm where he fell,would he be put in Sucrerie as others near Redan Ridge were full? The heidenkopf was this the area marked 22 on the enlarged trench maps shown?and was this around the area marked 134 on the D919. Do you have a wider IGN showing how close Sucrerie is to both Redan Ridge & the Heidenkopf.?What is a IGN by the way? With Many Thanks. Mavis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gunners dream Posted 4 September , 2005 Share Posted 4 September , 2005 Hi Mavis, Sorry for not getting back sooner, I've been enjoying the sunshine! This is the area that holds the Sucrerie Military Cemetary Basically it's in the bottom right hand corner above the D919 where it says 'La Fabrique Fme' The Quadrilateral is now Serre Road No 2 cemetery, the largest on the Somme. You take the D919 towards Serre and before the village it's on the right, with a French one on the left. IGN stands for Institut Geographique National, the French version of Ordnance Survey. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gunners dream Posted 4 September , 2005 Share Posted 4 September , 2005 Serre in 1916, note how today's map follows the same road so that you'll be able to pinpoint the positions. In 1917,when the Germans moved to the Hindenburg Line, there was a massive operation by V Canadian Corps to bury the dead of 1916, they started a lot of the cemeteries around this area. It was not unheard of to move bodies all over the area to bury them. By the way, you're right about the "Les Trous a L'eau". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 4 September , 2005 Share Posted 4 September , 2005 The fact that he is buried in Sucrerie cemetery almost certainly indicates he died of wounds en-route to an ADS, or his body was immediately recoverable from the battlefield in front of the Heidenkopf; or he was killed in the act of going over the top. This cemetery was not used in the V Corps clean up after the German retreat. The Redan Ridge cemeteries are all mass graves, and are largely made up of burials of men who fell on the higher part of the ridge either on 1st July or 13th November. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gunners dream Posted 4 September , 2005 Share Posted 4 September , 2005 To add to Paul's text here's the cemetery: http://www.silentcities.co.uk/cemeterys/Su...0Colincamps.htm I got my Sucerie and my Redans mixed up! It's probably sunstroke that's done it! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mavis Posted 4 September , 2005 Author Share Posted 4 September , 2005 Sorry not accessed my e-mails until 11.30p.m.Evening Barbeque to blame ! Thank you to Steve Again and to Paul Reed's clarification too. Noticed Steve that Bow Street & Cheeroh avenue as the Assembly areas mentioned in the Divisional War Diary are on the 1916 map you sent me. Was this an operational map from July 1916.?What is an ADS referred to in Paul's reply please. When I join up the modern maps Sucrerie is not too far from the Heidenkopf.is it? On this latest map you sent me ,what is the likely line of advance from the Assembly area of Cheeroh Avenue?How does this link up with Les Trous a L'eau on the other maps? I am understanding much more about his activities on that fateful morning. Thanks to All Mavis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 4 September , 2005 Share Posted 4 September , 2005 An ADS is an Advanced Dressing Station; a medical centre for the treatment of wounded soldiers. There was one located at the Sucrerie, and another in Colincamps, and also several at nearby Mailly-Maillet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 5 September , 2005 Share Posted 5 September , 2005 Mavis The Heidenkopf was not in the area marked 'Les Trous a l'eau' on the modern map. That is where mining activity north of Beaumont-Hamel was concentrated. It was actually in the field just east of the large Serre No 2 cemetery. If you examine the front line trace of the salient marked on the posted trench maps,you will see it ran more or less parallel to the Serre-Mailly road and very close to it, approximately where the 'C' of 'Cimre. Brit' is marked on the map. I make the distance to Sucrerie Cemetery about 2 km as the crow flys. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gunners dream Posted 5 September , 2005 Share Posted 5 September , 2005 Hello All, Sorry if my post was a bit ambiguous! Probably the sun again! I was talking about the Redan Ridge area, not the Quadrilateral, which is why I provided maps of Serre to try and highlight different locations. I've provided links below to the 3 cemeteries for Redan and one for Serre Road No 2. Plus the first link goes to another post asking about the Quadrilateral. http://www.silentcities.co.uk/cemeterys/Se...el,%20Somme.htm http://www.silentcities.co.uk/cemeteryr/Re...ry%20No%201.htm http://www.silentcities.co.uk/cemeteryr/Re...ry%20No%202.htm http://www.silentcities.co.uk/cemeteryr/Re...ry%20No%203.htm 1 and 3 are just east of where it says 'Les Trous a L'eau' on the IGN map and No 3 is to the south of 1 and 3 and is the triangular shape, that also resembles a golfing flag, just to the west of Chau d' Eau. I've also provided a link to one of Paul Reed's posts so that we can see some of the stuff that's been talked about: Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mavis Posted 5 September , 2005 Author Share Posted 5 September , 2005 Thanks To Everyone For your Superb and Detailed Analysis ,Maps,links and most of all your time and care. What a superb site and so helpful people. I have some Jpegs of Sucrerie to upload to contribute -how do I do this Kindest Regards Mavis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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