trying to detect dates of army engagement?

[marc glorieux]

Anyone who can help me ?

Freddy Cade (born 19 sep 1884) from Leeds was previously a member(service number 16926) of TF West-Riding Regiment (now Prince of Wales Rgt).

a CERTAIN time (on his first try for enlistening, his wife would not allow him to go at the army) after the outbreak of the war, he joined as Private by the King’s (Liverpool) and was engaged by the 1/9 Bn under service no. 49704.

He was killed in action 22 sep 1917 (third battle ypres - Menin Road) and is buried on Tyne Cot cy.

Is it possible, by the way of the service numbers, to find the date (at least the year) of his engagement by the TF West Riding and also his enlistening by the King’s.

Is there any one who can give me approximately an idea of this dates?

Consulted sources:

> research in every Leeds newspaper (22.09.17 to end jan 18) > no results

> unable to obtain t/a details from his rgt > records are missing

Regards

Marc

[cliff brown]

I may be wrong, but the 5-figure West Riding numbers seems incorrect. TF infantry numbers were 4-figure until April 1917 when they changed to 6-figure.

[Graham Stewart]

Marc,

I agree with Cliff, Territorial units throughtout the U.K. prior to the War used four figure regimental numbers and continued to use them up until 1917, when new six figure numbers were introduced.

The number 16926, could either be a regular army number, or a new army number depending on what numbers the regular battalions had reached up to, in August 1914.

Graham.

[Ken Lees]

Marc,

As Cliff & Graham suggest, these are not territorial numbers. His King's number certainly doesn't fall into the pre-1917 numbering system for the 9th Battalion and if he was a territorial at the beginning of 1917 he would have been given a 6-digit number prior to his death.

Freddy Cade was one of a number of men transferred from the West Riding Regt to the 9th King's Liverpool Regt, probably in the spring or summer of 1917. These men were all given 5-digit numbers in the King's, ranging from 49678 to 049770. Their previous, West Riding numbers seem to fall into two distinct ranges, 169** and 301**to306**.

It doesn't answer your question but it may give you a little more information to establish the facts you are looking for.

I would be interested to know if you find out any more about these men.

Regards,

Ken

[Tony Lund]

Just in case you are not aware of it, there are two Regiments that sometimes confused even the journalists in West Yorkshire during the war. The Duke of Wellington’s West Riding Regiment and the Prince of Wales Own West Yorkshire Regiment. The problem was usually caused by shortening the names to the West Riding’s and the West Yorks, and people not realising there was a difference between them. I have found that if there is any difficulty tracing a man from either one it is a good idea to look at the other.

Soldiers Died in the Great War might give confirmation of his previous regiment before the King’s.

Tony

[marc glorieux]

Tony,

SDGW confirms : Cade Freddy, b: Leeds; e: Leeds, Private, KIA France & Flanders 22.09.1917,

FORMERLY 16926, WEST RIDING REGIMENT, King's (Liverpool Regiment 9th battalion

what now ?

marc

[stiletto_33853]

Nothing to do with his numbers and units but he is in the book "Leeds in the Great War 1914 - 1918"

Andy

[Tony Lund]

With regard to Duke of Wellington’s 1914 volunteers.

All Holmfirth men killed with the 8th Battalion have 5 digit numbers starting with 14* * * these were all 1914 volunteers. Local 9th Battalion men have one 12* * * and four 14* * *, once again I know the 14* * * men were 1914 volunteers. 3 men killed on the 1st July 1916 with the pre-war regular battalion, the 2nd, all had 14* * * numbers and I know for certain that one of them enlisted in 1914, so presumably so did the others with similar numbers. 10th Battalion men local to Holmfirth have 15* * *, 19* * * and higher.

My best guess is that your man enlisted after recruiting started for the 10th Battalion, but not necessarily in that battalion. He could have been sent to a battalion already formed, the 2nd, 8th or 9th.

Unfortunately I do not have a date for this and it is only my best guess based on a small number of known numbers and year of enlistment. The Long Long Trail tell us the 10th was : “Formed at Halifax, September 1914, as part of K3. October 1914"

Perhaps someone with Duke of Wellington’s men in their area may know the date of enlistment of one with a 16* * * number.

For example a man numbered 12008 enlisted on the 4th of September 1914. I would imagine he would be 2nd Battalion moved to the 9th. But the only certainty is that he died with the 9th.

Tony.

[Tony Lund]

Victor Rayner

This will not help you but it may be of interest to someone looking at Duke of Wellington’s numbers to try to find a date.

Victor Rayner (10613), was reported to have enlisted just before the war started in 1914, clearly the 2nd Battalion were into 5 digit numbers before the war began.

Tony.

[jim_davies]

From his MIC apepars he did not serve abroad with the West Ridings.

[marc glorieux]

I am unfamiliar with military matters ad this overlay do not exactly help me but these 2 facts can eliminate maybe some doubts:

>>We may presume: Freddy Cade went to war in 1915-1916 (probably 1916).

Frederick Cade (born 24.11.1913) eldest son of Freddy Cade , has told to his son Jim (= grandson of Freddy) that he (Frederick) had no memories of his father (Freddy). He has always said that his father ‘(Freddy) went to war when he was only 2 years. (= in 1915 – 1916) and he was as good as 4 years when his father was KIA (= 1917)

A second son, Jimmy, was born 11.01.1916

He was rather old for a soldier when he was killed (aged 33 years).

>>We may presume: could Freddy Cade be a regular

According to the Census 1901 (Leeds) Freddy Cade (15 years old at that time) was a working as mechanics laborer.

Later he had a good job ( builder - installing boiler-units ) and was working sometimes for long time in nord east England

regards

marc