Croix de Guerre to 10th Lincs

[Guest C729LEE]

Forum

I have the honour of having a lovely set of MM/BWM/VM/CdG and Death Plaque to No.702 Cpl. Charles Robinson Cartwright 10th Lincs in my collection KIA 16/4/18. I have completed some quite in depth research into the man and his family, though, I must say I am stuck for finding a reason for the award of a CdG, having had none land in my collection before.

Is there someone out there who knows where I should look or who knows the reason for this mans award.

I am told only two were awarded to the 10th Lincs., the other to a Lt. Proctor.

Did they do something to aid the local people?

Did they fight along side the French?

I have a 34th Div for Cpl. Cartwright among his paperwork and postcards for actions on 9-14/4/17 - would this have anything to do with the CdG award?

What do you think?

Lee in Lincs

[Guest Cariad]

Hi,

Please keep me posted with your findings - I'm also researching why my great grandfather was awarded the CdG. He was part of the C/94th Brigade, Royal Field Artillery (Cleethorpes) - also Lincs.

A search on the London Gazette site found a reference in a Supplement dated 7th January 1919.

How exciting would it be if the two were connected?!

my email address is cariadbychan@hotmail.com

Cariad

[Stebie9173]

Bearing in mind the date of Cpl Cartwrights papers he may have been attached to the Canadian attack on Vimy Ridge at Arras on the 9-4-1917. I know that there were some British battalions attached to Canadian forces during that attack.

I shall check later...

Steve.

EDIT: That was 13th Brigade of 5th Division. Barking up wrong tree. Sorry.

Still likely to be Canadian if linked to 9-4-1917, thogh.

Edited 1 September , 2005 by Stebie9173

[Stebie9173]

Cpl Cartwrights Croix de Guerre was announced in the London Gazette of 15-4-1918:

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

702 Lance-Corporal Charles Robinson Cartwright.

Lincolnshire Regiment (Louth).

(The heading of the column, no citations though, is on page 3)

I can't really help you on the delay between the action when won and the Gazette, though.

Steve.

EDIT: Just noticed. Medal officially announced one day, killed the next.

Edited 1 September , 2005 by Stebie9173

[Staffsyeoman]

Don't get your hopes up too high. Without wishing to seem too cruel, there are many family myths about Grandad getting a CdeG for material assistance to the French etc and so forth, and sadly, often bunk.

The prosaic truth is that the Allies regularly exchanged awards, and this was done by handing over medals for the respective powers that be to distribute as they saw fit in a quota system. (This is why British awards, e.g. MM to Frenchmen etc are un-named)

As with most 'rules of thumb' this was not 100% true - but in the vast majority of cases, CdeGs (French or Belgian) in British groups have been awarded 'on behalf of' the Government of France, etc but the recipients have been chosen, for example, by the British divisional commander. So there aren't any citations.

[Guest C729LEE]

Chaps

No mention has been made of any actions, indeed, no-one in the family knows of any heroics or even that the medal in their drawer was one for gallantry. Sad really. Sme more digging is in order, I think.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Lee

[Chris]

Lee

Your reemergence has prompted me into a quick bought of photocopying of the bits and pieces i promised you yonks ago and completely forgot. My sincere apologies, they will be in the post tomorrow to you. Now have William Allison's Medal Roll as well, which confirms he was 1/5th Lincs prior to being kia with the 8th Lincs as Pte. 40007.

Apologies once again

Chris

[Chris]

Lee

This may help a little bit.

Lieut Proctor won his Croix de Guerre i believe on April 9th 1917, when the Chums were in attack near Roclincourt toweards the Point du Jour.. He was in charge of No. 5 Platoon, B Company, and was wounded when they reached some uncut German wire, where he encouraged his men. On the same day Major Kennington won the M.C.

Chris

[Stebie9173]

Temp Lt. Jack Proctor's CdeG was Gazetted on 14-7-1917.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

The Gazetting of Cpl Cartwright's CdeG is a long time after this one. That's a long way between Gazette dates for the same battle...

Major Kennington's MC was gazetted 18-7-1917 (with citation) and his DSO for 30-8-1918 on 1-2-1919 (also with citation)

Steve.

[Cliff. Hobson]

Lee

This may help a little bit.

Lieut Proctor won his Croix de Guerre i believe on April 9th 1917, when the Chums were in attack near Roclincourt toweards the Point du Jour.. He was in charge of No. 5 Platoon, B Company, and was wounded when they reached some uncut German wire, where he encouraged his men. On the same day Major Kennington won the M.C.

Chris

[

Lee, Chris,

Forgive me for intruding on your thread but does the above have any connection to the following,

Sergt., Streets was serving with the 10th Bn. of the Lincolns when he was killed on the 9th April 1917. The Lincolns were the D. Bn of the 101st Brigade, 34th Div., attacking the valuable high ground of the Point de Jour overlooking Garvrell and Oppy, on the British left flank in between the 51st Highland Div., and 9th Scottish Div., As the D. Bn., their objective was the 'Brown Line' at the Point de Jour, the final objective of the day for the 34th Div., and one they achieved with relatively minor losses. Unfortunately before reaching the 'Brown Line' they came under sniper and shell fire whilst trying to negotiate uncut wire at the German Jemmy/Jumble trench systems . It was here that most of the Lincoln casualties occurred and most likely where Sgt. Streets was hit

Regards Cliff.

[Guest C729LEE]

Chaps

Thank you for the further information, some interesting points and sources for more digging.

The dates on the 34th Div Honour Card coincide with the Point De Jeur action

9-14/04/17 and may have also been the occasion of the award of the CdG., the card was given for services in volunteering to do message running, cooly and with courage undertaking his duties throughout the period.

Lt. Proctor received the CdG for his part in the action, being pinned down and keeping up the morale of his men high by singing songs and doing Charlie Chaplin impressions. Difficult I am sure even if not wounded. Smacks of Blackadder here somewhere

Questioning the family, one of the older Cartwright clan told me that Cpl. Cartwright was KIA 16/04/18, whilst riding a motorcycle as a messenger, killed by a snipers bullet. This apparently, is in the 10th Bn. War Dairy.

Would a lowly Corporal such as Charles R. Cartwright get a mention in the daily diary entry?

Chris, thank you for your thoughtful posts, I await them with great interest.

I was most surprised to find many of the mens names and numbers matched with my collection of 1st/2nd Bn. Lincs. medals. It would also seem that at some time early on in the war, there was an interchange of men. i.e. 8886 Pte. John William Sturman was serving with the 1st Bn. but was KIA 01/07/16 while with the 2ndBn.

All interesting stuff.

I am still trying to tie up William Allison's story and it seems likely as you say he was with the 1/5 Lincs. I look forward to seeing his MIC.

Cheers

Lee in Lincs

[Guest C729LEE]

Cliff

No intrusion, the more the merrier, in fact.

The action in which Sgt. Street(s) was killed is indeed the same. I remember reading a description in a book about the 10th Lincs. where there were high losses to the Lincs., particularly Battalion messengers and runners.

Thanks for your input.

Lee in Lincs

[Steve Bramley]

May be of interest to you.

Here

[Guest C729LEE]

Steve

Thats brilliant - Thanks alot, mate. Some of the things this forum comes up with astounds me as just a dabbler. Bloody marvellous.

Lee

[Steve Bramley]

Lee,

Have you made enquiries? How much?

Steve.

[Guest C729LEE]

Steve

Just had a look at present, though will let you know the full details, and post the piece when it lands.

Thanks for your thoughts and time.

Lee in Scawby

[Guest C729LEE]

Steve B

Placed my order for the obituary to No.702 L/Cpl. CR Cartwright MM CdG from the link that you kindly sent.

It says allow a week for sussing it out, £2.50 for each download sent to your computer, which I don't think is bad at all.

I'll post you a copy off - one to chris, too.

Lee

[Steve Bramley]

Cheers Lee,

Not bad at all, keep us posted!

Steve.

[Guest C729LEE]

Steve

When it lands you'll be the first to know. Lee

[aliecoco]

Hi Lee,

I have just noticed your thread concerning Cpl Cartwright. I've had a look in my William Spencer PRO book, and there seems to be a list of awards in the section WO 388 at the PRO. I have never researched a soldier entitled to a CdG before, so I don't know what it contains exactly. But thought I would have a little look and see.

I'll let you know how I get on. It will be a new learning curve for me as well! Oh yes if I get time, do you want me to have a look in the 10th Lincs war diary for any mention of his death?

Alie.

[Guest C729LEE]

That would be great, Alie. I did wonder whether he had been mentioned, as there was a rumor that he may have been killed while riding a motorcycle running messages. The Battalion diary was supposed to have something in it.

Sorry for the delay in replying, I have been on my hols.

His obituary is attached - Steve Bramley asked what the service was like.

Well Steve, the payment of £2.50 went & cleared, the e/m & attachment arrived within a day or two, and is of excellent quality. It looks fine on screen & prints off a treat

[Guest C729LEE]

WHOOOOOPS!!!!!!!!!!

That was a touch on the gargantuan size.

Here is another effort

EDIT: HEY, who needs the Missus here to tell me what to do

Not Jonno

[Adam Harland]

Lee,

I rather think that Phil (Staffs Yeoman) is correct regarding the Croix De Guerre, which ( based on 12th HLI) were dished out across a range of ranks. My Grandfather ( Lt OV Harland) was given one, but it was not awarded in relation to a particular act. There is a family myth, from my grandmother,that he should have been awarded an MC during the fighting in summer 1918, but was acting as Adjt and could not recommend himself!. Its not true, although, bizarrely, there is a photo of him in uniform in a jacket with an MC ribbon. This was taken as a 'reassurance'photo after he was WIA in March 1918. As he was shot in the chest, I think he borrowed another officer's jacket without a bloodstain on the front ( MG round to the chest), in order to provide 'proof' that he was OK.

There is nothing to suggest that the medals were drawn by lot, so there will no doubt be some reason why one person got a medal and another didn't. I think, but have nothing to prove it, that they were seen as an opportunity for recognising some element of service that had not been formally recognised through the British reward/recognition system.

I have never seen anything to suggest that they were a formal recognition by the french or Belgians of one British soldier's exploits. Ironically, in the case of Cpl Cartwright's fate, being alive in 4/18 to recieve it may have been as good a reason as any.

[Guest C729LEE]

Adam,

Ironically, in the case of Cpl Cartwright's fate, being alive in 4/18 to recieve it may have been as good a reason as any.

Ironic is the word, he was KIA the next day - awarded 15th and KIA 16th.

Thanks for your reply, I think you are right in what you say. He had been wounded on two occasions and received the 34th Div Honour Card, which I have with his medals and research. He must have been known for his MM and his volunteering for various duties like message running. He was Killed doing this duty.

That is an interesting read, and so many who did their bit did not receive the recognition they so deserved.

LinL

[Guest C729LEE]

May be of interest to you.

Here

Steve

Here it is, matey.

Knew it was kicking about somewhere.

Did you sort that little sign out for you know who

Lee