CWGC question

[jim_davies]

Just a couple of questions on the CWGC records.

How long after the war were the next of kin contacted with regard to having their details held in the CWGC regsiters ?

What type of info was allowed, and was there a limit to how much could be written ?

Thanks,

Jim

[Bob Coulson]

Jim,

Terry will no doubt explain the answers to both your questions.

Just to start off, the next of kin were sent "final verification forms" on which to complete their relatives details and be included in the registers.

Unfortunately not all were returned hence cases of men on local war memorials but not included in the CWGC registers.

Bob.

[Greenwoodman]

I was just reading about that yesterday - Longworth's "The Unending Vigil"

"By the end of March 1921, Chettle and his staff had verified 65,000 names and inscriptions and 15,000 more were in hand; 420,000 had been made out with fresh and corrected information, and 70,000 new registrations had been notified to next of kin."

This will give some idea in relation to timescale.

[Terry Denham]

The forms were sent out in the very early 20s for WW1 and again after WW2. The first register was published (Le Treport) in 1920.

They requested confirmation of personal details, next-of-kin and allowed addition of 'further information'. They also requested details of any Personal Inscription required.

As Bob said, not all were returned for a variety of reasons - not least because many people had moved address from that held in military records. However, I must correct Bob here (sorry).

If no form was returned, the casualty's name still appeared in CWGC's registers etc but with only basic details - name, number, rank, regt/service, date of death and burial location. The forms had nothing to do with local memorials having or not having specific names as these memorials had no connection with CWGC. All qualifying names should be in the registers - now replaced by the on-line database.

There was no attempt to confirm all the details supplied by the n-o-k. It was from this form that the few 'causes of death' were supplied which appear against some entries in WW1 registers. No such details were requested for WW2. The n-o-k were promised that their own words would be used in the registers - hence some short entries and some very long ones.

Unfortunately, the Final Verification Forms for WW1 were burnt in the early 1970s when CWGC moved to Maidenhead. Those for WW2 still exist.

I seem to remember that an image of such a form was posted on this Forum some time ago.

[Muerrisch]

And I recall that n o k were charged per letter for extra inscription .... cannot remember where I read it. Could I be reminded, please?

[Terry Denham]

The charge was three pence halfpenny for each letter/space. Maximum charge was a pound. A lot of money and hence so many WW1 headstones without PIs.

The NZ government refused to allow PIs on grounds of equality - not everyone could afford it. The Canadian government paid the cost themselves.

Some time after its introduction, the charge was made voluntary and in WW2 remained so but the notional charge was 7/6 and then later a pound.

The n-o-k can still have a PI engraved at no cost but only if requested by close relatives (spouse, children, sibling) and the offer of a PI has not been previously refused.

[Paul Reed]

The NZ government refused to allow PIs on grounds of equality - not everyone could afford it. The Canadian governemnt paid the cost themselves.

The only general exception being Special Memorials, where one sees 'Their Glory Shall Not be Blotted Out'... and John Laffin once told me he had found a NZEF officer with a personal inscription on the grave - supposedly the only exception to the NZ policy. But I forget his name - anyone know?

[Terry Denham]

Paul

The Special Memorials do indeed carry the inscription you quote but this is not a 'Personal Inscription'. It falls into the same category as the 'Known unto God' inscription on Unknown graves.

It has just occured to me that I have never seen a Personal Inscription on a Special Memorial overseas. Special Memorials in the UK do not carry the 'blotted out' inscription and therefore can have PIs.

I believe there are a very small number of NZ headstones with a PI (there is one in Sussex - see below) but I think these were added 'unofficially' at a later date.

BRYANT, Frederick Clarence

Private 27158

1 Bn, Canterbury Regiment, New Zealand Expeditionary Force

Died 26.11.18 in No.2 New Zealand Hospital, Walton-on-Thames, Surrey Age 22

Parents: Albert Edward & Alice Elizabeth Bryant of School Hill, Sedlescombe

CWGC Memorial. St John the Baptist Churchyard, Sedlescombe

Personal Inscription: A loving husband and son. Gone but not forgotten

It is possible that this was permitted to break the NZ rule as the casualty's parents were British and he died in the UK.

[Paul Reed]

It has just occured to me that I have never seen a Personal Inscription on a Special Memorial overseas. Special Memorials in the UK do not carry the 'blotted out' inscription and therefore can have PIs.

Thanks for that Terry.

I have seen plenty of PIs on Special Memorials; can post some examples, if you want - and if I can find the photos!

[Terry Denham]

If you could post a photo, I'd be grateful.

I am sure I have seen them myself but never registered the combination! I have certainly not photographed one myself.

Upon reflection, it would be unlikely that the n-o-k of a Special Memorial casualty would be denied the opportunity to have a PI as a headstone would be in existance. Unlike the n-o-k of a casualty on a memorial to the missing who were denied such a facility.

[Muerrisch]

Yet another thread I am going to print and put in a folder ..... marvellous erudition folks.

[Bob Coulson]

Good info there Terry.

But it's blown my theory as to why I can't find a few of my local memorial men.

Bob.

[Terry Denham]

Sorry, Bob, but your theory didn't fly.

Local memorials have no connection with CWGC records and the names were compiled in whatever manner the local committees thought appropriate - as we have discussed on several threads on the Forum.

There will be many reasons why you cannot find the men on the CWGC list ranging from error on the memorial to different names being used or them being mispelt. In some cases the names may not be eligible for war grave status - and, indeed, a few could be missing from the CWGC records due to error (one listed on my own local village memorial was - error now rectified).

If no Final Verification Form was returned, the basic details with which CWGC started were published in the registers as I outlined above.

[john w.]

So where a headstone has an age for the soldier buried there, this is verified through the family as well as the attestation papers? or am i completely wrong....

John

[jim_davies]

Thanks guys,

Once again I'm completely blown away with the depth of knowledge shown by different pals.

Much appreciated.

Jim

[Terry Denham]

Age was not an item of information automatically added to headstones by CWGC so there was no referring to military records to ascertain a casualty's age

Age was added if the n-o-k so wished and space was provided on the Final Verification Form for them to give this information. Therefore, discrepancies sometimes occur between the headstone age and other records. It also explains why the age is absent from many headstones - either the opportunity to add the age was declined or the form not returned.

Essentially the Forms asked n-o-k to confirm basic details which were inscribed on the form and gave them an opportunity to add any further information they wished (ie schooling, sporting achievements, previous military service, unofficial awards etc) - although not very many chose to embelish the basic information. N-o-k details appear in CWGC records when the Forms were returned thus confirming the address of the relatives.

[john w.]

Am I right when the next of kin were expected to confirm the information they had provided, like age etc on the Final Verification Form.,but that in many cases this confirmation was not provided for a number of reasons.

If it was, was it the duty of the CWGC to check the form or was it taken at face value, as it had come from the n-o-k?

These forms I believe were destroyed post world war 2, is that correct?

John

[Bob Coulson]

John,

The forms were destroyed, can't remember when though.

Bob.

[Terry Denham]

CWGC did not confirm the info given by relatives. It was assumed to be correct.

The Forms were destroyed in the early 1970s when CWGC moved to Maidenhead - as is mentioned earlier in this thread. The Forms for WW2 still survive.

[Muerrisch]

Has anyone else the vague impression that I have formed, that a pre-war Regular soldier, died in the Great War, is LESS LIKELY to have age, voluntary inscription etc on headstone, and LESS LIKELY to have more than the bare facts in the Register?

And that those who joined during the war are MORE LIKELY?

I could actually do the number crunching for 2RWF I suppose.

My premise would be that, pre-war, "going for a soldier" made a lad about as unpopular with his family as could be, whereas young men doing their patriotic duty later on were seen as heros.

Well, does anyone have this feeling about the different likelihoods of "added value" on the headstone, please?

[Terry Denham]

You may be right. Many relatives had fallen out with their military 'black sheep' and they could have carried this over into death by not completing 'additional details' on the Final Verification Form - or even by not returning it. I suspect that this would have happened in only a small number of cases.

Age was the only extra detail that they could have had added to the headstone apart from any Personal Inscription but they could have had much more detail added to the registers.

However, the vast majority of WW1 entries either have only the basic details or just the addition of n-o-k names and addresses. Not all of these could have fallen out with their relative! It suggests other factors were at work - disillusionment, moved address, inability to read the official form properly, fear of officialdom, being deceased themselves, false address given upon enlistment etc etc.

[Guest Simon Bull]

Do these "final verification forms" survive in the CWGC's records?

Simon Bull

[Terry Denham]

Simon

See earlier in this thread

[Guest Simon Bull]

Sorry - I see my question has already been answered - ignore it.

Simon Bull

[Terry_Reeves]

At what stage did the CWGC stop accepting Final Verification Forms for WW1? I ask this because I am interested in the number of war widows who remarried after the war, particularly in the 1920's. I wonder if re-marriage had an effect on the personal details that were submitted perhaps out of sensitivity to a new partner.

Terry Reeves