JJDownunder Posted 26 August , 2005 Share Posted 26 August , 2005 Hi Hope I am doing this right as this is my first post My Gr Uncle(Albert Lawson 785928) was a gunner in the RFA and I was hoping to find out more about where he fought or when he might have joined I do know he died 29th Sept 1918 and his grave is in Epehy Wood cemetary Somme France also I have located his medal card does anyone know how I can obtain a copy other than downloading online thanks JJdownunder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 26 August , 2005 Share Posted 26 August , 2005 JJDownunder, This one had me tugging at my hair or whats left of it. Anyway it's a New Army unit and took some looking up and is quite complicated;- 44th(Heavy)Bde originally went to France in 1914 with 2nd Division, but was broken up there on 26/5/1916. 382 Bty,R.F.A. was formed in 1916 and then disbanded only to be reformed again in 1917 as 382 Bty,44th Bde(382/44). A new 44th Bde was formed in England which consisted of 340 Bty,R.F.A; 382 Bty,R.F.A. and 399 Bty.R.F.A. 44th Bde,R.F.A. was allocated to 74th Division and disembarked at Alexandria on 27/5/17. By 2/6/17 was at Sidi Bishr. At Sidi Bishr 44th Bde,R.F.A. reformed from a 3(4x 13pdr gun)Batteries Brigade into a 2(6x 18pdr gun)Batteries Brigade. 399/44 was broken up to complete the re-organisation and 340/44 became 'A'/44, while 382/44 became 'B'/44. On 3/7/1917 44th Bde,R.F.A. joined 74th Division. Between 11 & 17/4/1918 44th Bde,R.F.A. was re-organised at Sarafand. 'A'/44 was redesignated 340 Bty(340/44) and 'B'/44 resumed as 382 Bty(382/44). In 1918 425 Bty,R.F.A which was formed in 1917 arrived and joined 44th Bde,R.F.A. as 'C' Bty/44th Bde('C'/44), but it resumed as 425/44 shortly after joining. A further battery was added when 'C'(H)/CCLXVIII and became 'D'(Heavy)Bty,44th Bde('D'(H)/44). In 1918 74th Division moved to France and 44th Bde went with it. The formation of 44th Bde was unchanged by 11th November 1918. In 1919 H.Q.; 382/44 & 425/44 Batteries were disbanded. Now listen all you "5 mile snipers" out there, please don't tell me I've got it wrong, because a grown man shouldn't be seen crying. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJDownunder Posted 27 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 August , 2005 WOW!! that was quick!! Now that's got me tugging at my hair, will have to study this info as I haven't really got a clue just what it all means (I am of the female gender)anyway never mind just wondered if I can pick your brains once more. I have a pocket bible that belonged to gt uncle Albert The Pocket Testament League bible and just inside the front cover is written Alexandria Egypt Aug 18/8/17 at Kate Karney's Home. I now know that Kate Karney means army barracks but would the date possibly mean when he was issued with the bible ?? Therefore that would put him in Alexandria Aug 1917 sorry I hope I'm not being a nuisance Thanks Julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 27 August , 2005 Share Posted 27 August , 2005 Julie, It's nearly 2o'clock in the morning here and I've just read your reply and have never been so deflated in all my life. I put that lot together thinking that there was some "Digger" bloke at the other end waiting for an answer before he flashed up his barbie and cracked open a tinny. I thought to myself he'll just take one look at all of this, understand it and be chuffed to bits. If I have to explain all of this now I know I'll start and sob, I can my eyes filling up with tears now. So I'm going to have a shower and off to bed. I'll get back to this one tomorrow, that's if nobody beats me to it and gives you an explanation as to what it all means. Regards, Graham. P.S. Has Carl died in Neighbours yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 28 August , 2005 Share Posted 28 August , 2005 Julie, Briefly 382nd Battery were a war raised "New Army" or "Kitchener" unit. R.F.A. = Royal Field Artillery. Bde = Brigade. The R.F.A. had a funny system of naming their units with either numbers i.e. 382/44 = 382nd Battery, 44th Brigade; letters and numbers 'A'/44 = 'A' Battery, 44th Brigade and even letters and Roman numerals 'C'(H)/CCLXVIII = 'C'(Heavy)Battery/ ??? Brigade(sorry it's too late to be working out these Roman numerals). Usually you would have between two and four batteries to a brigade, depending on where they were and what time period during the war. 74th(Yeomanry)Division was a dismounted Yeomany Division formed in the Middle East in 1917, and if you send me your e.mail address I'll scan and send you details on it as there's too much to write in a post. And that's about it really. Once you have the Divisional details it may become a bit clearer to you. Regards, Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 28 August , 2005 Share Posted 28 August , 2005 An interesting situation for a number of reasons. Lawson's regimental number (785928) indicates that he enlisted sometime after late 1916 and that he enlisted in the 3rd West Riding Brigade, RFA TF. The first line of this brigade was redesignated in 1917 as 247th Brigade, RFA TF in the 49th Division and the second line was redesignated as 312th Brigade, RFA TF in the 62nd Division. Based on his MIC and his number I would guess that he probably enlisted in 312th Brigade. 44th Brigade RFA was a Regular RFA unit, and while it was not unheard of, it was uncommon, for Territorial gunners to be transferred to regular RFA brigades. The other interesting aspect of Lawson is that I cannot find him listed in "Soldiers Died" (the book). He is listed on the CWGC site. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 28 August , 2005 Share Posted 28 August , 2005 Dick I seem to be missing something here, as my great grandfathers number was 770969 Shoe Smith, Moses William Francis and he enlisted on 9th September 1914 for the Ammunition Column, 3rd Northumbrian Brigade, R.F.A.(T.F.) and was numbered 4182. While at home he was transferred to the Divisional Ammunition Column on the reorgainistion of the Divisional Artillery and renumbered 2712 in accordance with A.C.I.98 of 13th January 1915("Regimental Numbers of Certain Divisional Units T.F."). This recognises D.A.C.'s as individual units and men serving in them were to have their own series of numbers. He served throught out the war with 50th D.A.C. and in 1917 was again renumbered 770969 in accordance with A.C.I.2198(Appendix 183 - "New Series of Regimental Numbers to be Alloted to Soldiers of the R.F.A. & R.H.A."). Considering his service documents survived, I can't see how you have Albert Lawson as a late enlistment unless you have a database which follows this particular unit from 1914 to 1918? Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 28 August , 2005 Share Posted 28 August , 2005 Graham: The difference is that your great grandfather had two numbers and according to the MIC Lawson only had one. The six digit numbers were not used until late 1916/early 1917 and so a man who only had the six digit number must have joined after the change to six digit numbers. Men who joined prior to that time got a three, four or five digit number that in 1917 was changed to the six-digit number. Hope that all makes sense. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 28 August , 2005 Share Posted 28 August , 2005 Dick, Unless of course he didn't take the the Imperial Service obligation and remained at home with a Home Service unit. In which case he would still have a four figure number. With the introduction of the six figure number and removal of Home Service status under the Military Services Act he could still proceed overseas, having been in the Army since 1914, but landing in France with a six figure number. Not as simple as at first thought. Plus only my Great Grandfathers second four figure number appears on his MIC. His original one only appears on his Service Documents. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 28 August , 2005 Share Posted 28 August , 2005 Graham: Yes, but if he had served at home he would have had a four/five-digit number. We can make all kind of assumptions but at least to this point the only thing we can say for sure is that a man who joined the army prior to the six-digit number change in TF number in 1917 would have both a pre-change four/five digit number and a man who joined after the number change would only have the six-digit number. You seem to imply that only men who went overseas received the six-digit number. What evidence do you have for that? The CWGC site has a number of examples of men with six-digit numbers who died in the UK before having any overseas service. The six-digit numbers were allocated to the original pre-war TF brigades not to individual overseas brigades and it is my understanding that any other rank joining the home TF unit after the number change received the six-digit number regardless of whether they ever went overseas. Regrds. Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 28 August , 2005 Share Posted 28 August , 2005 Dick, What I'm implying is that the MIC only records the number on the day that you stepped ashore in France or where-ever on active service. My evidence is based on my grandfathers own service documents and MIC and the fact I also collect Discharge Certificates. So here are three examples;- 4182 S/Smith Moses William Francis enlisted 9/9/1914, Ammo Column, 3rd Northumbrian Bde, R.F.A. - (this number not on MIC or Medal Roll). Renumbered 2712 Jan 1915 - (On MIC & MR). France April 1915. Renumbered 770696 in 1917 - (On MIC & MR). Sgt Thomas Butterill enlisted 9/12/1915 into York & Lancaster Regt - original number not known - not recorded on MIC. Transferred to Durham L.I. - new number not known not recorded on MIC. Transferred to 5th Infantry Labour Coy, Devonshire Regt renumbered 49684 - recorded on MIC. Transferred to 170th Labour Coy, Labour Corps renumbered 101437 - recorded on MIC. Pte Frederick William Gilbert enlisted 11/12/1915 into Royal West Kent Regt original number not known - not recorded on MIC. Transferred to Training Reserve Bn - new number not recorded on MIC. Transferred to 5th Bn, Royal Fusiliers renumbered GS/51563 - recorded on MIC. Collecting Discharge Certificates does open up a whole new sphere regarding service at home and overseas and how it's recorded on MIC & Medal Rolls. So Lawson theoretically could have enlisted at the same time as my Great Grandfather and could have been issued an original four figure number, never took the I.S. obligation, served at home, was renumbered in 1917 with a six figure number and then went overseas but only the number he steps ashore with is recorded on the MIC. Hope this makes some sense. Regards, Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 28 August , 2005 Share Posted 28 August , 2005 Graham: Now I understand your point and the examples you give would seem to support your thesis. My experience is with RA officers and I have a number of MICs and service papers of officers who previously served as other ranks but did not go overseas, and their service numbers are recorded on the MIC. Another item to add to my list of things to research! Thanx. Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 28 August , 2005 Share Posted 28 August , 2005 Dick, A pleasure to converse with you and should we ever come across each other, I'll get the drinks in and we'll discuss the hobby we both appear to love. All the best, Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJDownunder Posted 28 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2005 Gidday Graham, Sorry I didn't mean to dampen your enthusiasm and I really do hate to see a grown man cry so if it is any consolation There is really nothing like a Great Aussie Barbie and I don't mind knocking back a tinny or three. And I really am quite chuffed with all this will PM you my email thanks heaps Julie PS oh by the way, sorry I don't watch neighbours so can't help you there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJDownunder Posted 28 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2005 Gidday Graham and Dick I see there's been quite a disscussion over this topic but I am still in the dark Does this mean he was already in the army before the war? Julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 29 August , 2005 Share Posted 29 August , 2005 Julie: I think that Graham and I would agree that we aren't able to answer that question from the evidence at hand. Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 29 August , 2005 Share Posted 29 August , 2005 Julie, Dick is correct, we can only tell you what we know from the information provided, which comes from yourself and his Medal Index Card. The only true aspect of any service career is detailed in his service documents, but as you will already be aware the bulk of these documents were destroyed during the Blitz in 1940. Having said that it's still worth having a seach done that's if you're prepared to pay a researcher. Dick may be able to recommend someone who could do this for you at a reasonable rate. I was lucky my grandfathers survived as did my great uncles who served with the Australians and was killed at Peronne. Got your e.mail address OK and will send promised details as soon as I come back from my mothers. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJDownunder Posted 30 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 30 August , 2005 Thanks fellas Any idea what sort of expense I would be looking at for said research and is there any way other than downloading on line his medal index card as I would like to get hold of a copy Julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 30 August , 2005 Share Posted 30 August , 2005 Julie: Chris Baker the moderator of this form does this type of research and I would recommend him. Check http://www.1914-1918.org/ to learn about his research services. Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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