Nick Thornicroft Posted 24 August , 2005 Share Posted 24 August , 2005 Does anyone out there know if the English-based Scottish battalions, such as those mentioned above, wore kilts as they went into action on The Somme in 1916? I seem to remember reading somewhere one battalion was initially denied this honour. I wonder also if English or Welshmen serving in these battalions objected to the kilt? Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 24 August , 2005 Share Posted 24 August , 2005 Nick, Regarding the Tyneside Scottish, I can say they definatley didn't wear kilts into action. Infact they had been trousered from the day they were raised, apart from the pipers in the pipebands. As it is, there is also no evidence that the pipers wore them going into action either. The wearing of a kilt by the Tyneside Scottish was a bone of contention between the raisers and War Office from the day the idea was put forward for the raising of a Tyneside Scottish Battalion. It was an arguement that was never resolved by either party and so only the pipers wore them. The tartans used by the pipers were;- 1st Tyneside Scottish - black & white checked plaid and kilt known as " Northumbrian or Shepherds" tartan. 2nd Tyneside Scottish - Plaid and kilt was the Campbell of Loudon tartan. 3rd Tyneside Scottish - Plaid and kilt Campbell of Argyll tartan. 4th Tyneside Scottish - Plaid and Kilt same as 2nd Battalion. 29th(Res)Bn, N.F.(T.S.) - kilt and plaid same as 1st T.S., but thought to be chocolate and white. I have actually seen a strip of this, but couldn't determine if it was sun faded black & white. By the end of 1916 a special T.S. Bde tartan was introduced for the pipers known as "Sandbag" tartan, the colouring being similar to khaki and dark green. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmac Posted 24 August , 2005 Share Posted 24 August , 2005 The London Scottish wore kilts throughout the war. The kilt was of a plain 'Hodden Grey', the colour of their founder Lord Elcho's hunting coat. Example HERE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 24 August , 2005 Share Posted 24 August , 2005 Also has a blue fringe down the 'open' side at the front. The Regiment also wore a patch of this as a backing to the badge, and on the helmet (certainly in 1916), wore the blue tourie attached to the helmet cover. The tourie comes from the glengarry - the London Jocks wear an all-blue glengarry with a blue tourie (not red as everyone else - almost - has). Where worn, the diced hose are blue/hodden hatching, with a blue garter bow. The regiment took Hodden rather than a tartan as it was formed from Scotsmen living in exile, with no particular clan affiliation; the hodden colour also acted as a very good camouflage at a time when everyone else, pretty much, was prancing around in scarlet! The museum at RHQ in Horseferry Road is worth a visit - you need to contact the regiment for an appointment: www.londonscottish.org.uk I had the privilege of serving in the late 70's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Thornicroft Posted 24 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 24 August , 2005 Many thanks for the replies. I suspect the kilts were sometimes snagged on barbed wire during an attack - a gruesome thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 24 August , 2005 Share Posted 24 August , 2005 Yes. Also became waterlogged in trenches; acted as blankets on occasion, and were prone to causing sunburn if you laid out in the sun. The latter point may sound silly, but it was a huge problem for highlanders in S Africa, pinned down at Colenso or the Modder River by accurate Boer rifle fire. Unable to move, and with the kilt rucked over their thighs, they suffered agonies from the sun. Finally, a great problem for mustard gas: as an oily substance, it 'stuck' on bare flesh; particularly so on the (ladies may wish to look away now) 'sweaty bits'. Oh, by the way - if an Englishman or welshman objected to wearing a kilt, he jolly well shouldn't join a kilted regiment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Thornicroft Posted 25 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 25 August , 2005 Steven I was thinking more of the non-Scots who had no choice as to which battalion they were sent to, particularly in the latter stages of the war. I have nothing against the Scots personally, but I do not know if I would like to wear a kilt on active service! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 25 August , 2005 Share Posted 25 August , 2005 Good point. I think (generally, and others may know different) that the esprit de corps aspect worked - a kilt made you stand out from the crowd, and I can say, as one who has worn the kilt on parade, that it really does add a ceratin something! There are advantages, too. When wet, it is more easily removed to put over the parados of the trench to dry; yes, it may snag, but so would heavy woollen trousers; it is surprisingly warm in winter (my passing-out parade was in heavy snow and we were toasty warm!); as I said, it could be used as a shawl if circumstances demanded. Overall, I'm not sure that the drawbacks are so great, and I have never heard or read of any complaints. I could be biased of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 25 August , 2005 Share Posted 25 August , 2005 Nick, Other problems with the kilt on active service - after wading through a river in winter, the hems would freeze and cut your knees when running! Also the pleats provided a home for many unwelcome visitors, who had to be chased out by candle from time to time! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFF Posted 25 August , 2005 Share Posted 25 August , 2005 On a Website of WW I photos I saw a picture of Dead highlanders(?) wearing the kilt-Soory can't give reference right now. I think I read somewhere that the last times Kilts were worn in battle was by the Camerons in France in 1940-correct me if I'm Wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB64 Posted 25 August , 2005 Share Posted 25 August , 2005 I believe the last time kilts were worn in action (as a unit thing and not just individual pipers etc) was by the Commando Engineers on the St Nazaire raid. I think they may have been Liverpool Scottish wearing Forbes Tartan but I am not sure. Alistair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Thornicroft Posted 25 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 25 August , 2005 I believe the Germans were wary of many of the Scottish regiments during WW1, because of the ferocious fighting spirit employed by the men from north of the border. Kilts or not, I'm glad they were on our side! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 25 August , 2005 Share Posted 25 August , 2005 Family legend again but my uncle who was in RFA in WW1 said that the Germans called the Scottish soldiers the women from hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gunners dream Posted 25 August , 2005 Share Posted 25 August , 2005 Hello there I've come too late again, but I'd like to add a few bits if I may. The correct term the Germans used for Scottish Regiments was 'The Ladies from Hell' and they were probably one of the most feared units on the Western Front. On the subject of the Tyneside Scottish, I have an account from a soldier, Pvt Tom Easton, who most of us will know is a famous charatcer from WWI, who served in one the 2nd Battalion of this famous regiment. After their baptism of fire on the Somme they had been given permission to wear a small piece of tartan behind their cap badges. Easton stated: 'One Geordie sat quietly studying the three inch square of cloth. 'Man we'll have to fight a hell of a lot of battles before we get our kilts!' Steve Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 25 August , 2005 Share Posted 25 August , 2005 Steve, Ah! what would the Great War be without it's myths and legends. The cap badge backing tartan was issued after the T.S. was granted with the wearing of Balmoral caps after the review of the Brigade on the Town Moor, Newcastle, by the King on 20th May 1915. The caps did take some months to arrive, but the backing was being worn long before the Somme, hence the attachment, which is the actual cap badge and backing belonging to Piper Edward Roland Grieves who died of wounds on 6/7/1916, aged 18yrs. As you say Tom Easton was one of the T.S.'s characters, but I actually have Toms original hand written notes, which are written on oddments of paper in typical working class manner. The typed up copies which are found floating around are heavily edited by a professional. Many of the stories he was credited with are not mentioned in his original notes and I later discovered that they were actually stories from fellow T.S. members spoken at Old Comrades Dinners and printed in OCA journals.Tom eventually passed these down in later years as the OCA's folded due to dwindling members. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gunners dream Posted 25 August , 2005 Share Posted 25 August , 2005 Graham, Thanks for the info and the great picture, I've always wondered what the cap badge looked like in Glorious Technicolor! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 25 August , 2005 Share Posted 25 August , 2005 Steve, Typical me forgot to mention Grieves, was in the 3rd Tyneside Scottish, 22/781 and was from the Heaton area of Newcastle. The remains of his pipes were actually found on 7th July and as they had been "Presented to the Tyneside Scottish, by members of the Union Club" and marked as such. They were eventually returned to F.E. Forster one of five who subscribed to them, who was unaware of the inscription. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 25 August , 2005 Share Posted 25 August , 2005 And before anyone asks - nothing's worn under the kilt. It's all in perfect working order! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Thornicroft Posted 27 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 August , 2005 Graham You mentioned Piper Grieves in this thread - did he pipe the 3rd Tyneside Scottish into action on July 1st? I note on the CWGC he was only 18. Tragic. Many thanks, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 27 August , 2005 Share Posted 27 August , 2005 Nick, Piper Grieves was probably the youngest piper who died of wounds on the 1st July 1916. In the group photo of the 3rd Battalion Pipers he's seated to the extreme left of the picture. His grave at Etaples is on the right of this photo. I'll add some other items referring to Grieves in the next post. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 27 August , 2005 Share Posted 27 August , 2005 Nick, The newpaper cutting refers to the finding of Piper Grieves pipes which were found on the battlefield, obvious evidence that he piped his company into action(pipers would have been with their company's on the day). The note is from F.E.Forster one of the sponsors of Grieves pipes and it reads;-"Dear Sir, I am very gratful to you for permitting one to read the enclosed & to know the actual player of the pipes. Will you convey my thanks to Mr. Grieves - Yours faithfully F.E.Forster." Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Thornicroft Posted 27 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 August , 2005 Graham The photos are fascinating & very moving. Many thanks for posting them, & the newspaper article. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gunners dream Posted 27 August , 2005 Share Posted 27 August , 2005 Graham, Stupid question? I take it the 7th July was 1916? Great photos thanks for posting them. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 27 August , 2005 Share Posted 27 August , 2005 Steve, Yes, they were found 7th July 1916. Sadly it only mentions an officer of the Royal Field Artillery, but doesn't say if he belonged to either 34th Div or 19th Div who actually cleared the battlefield. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Thornicroft Posted 28 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2005 Graham Do you know where the pipes are now? In the Regimental Museum, perhaps? Many thanks, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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