Tierney Posted 23 August , 2005 Share Posted 23 August , 2005 From my friend Mack on another forum who has identified my grandads medals for me, and also explained what an old contemptible was, Mack also noticed that although he was a L/Cpl on his discharge paper he was only a Pte. I would like to find out more about where he was during the war, and what his acts of bravery were, can anyone help? " the medals from left to right are the military medal and bar [second award ]1914 star,war medal and victory medal,your grandfather enlisted in 1907,served thirteen years 34 days with the colours,he was discharged on 31-3-1920,he was of exemplary conduct,sober and trustworthy,on discharge his rank was a private,during the war he was a lance corporal,he was in france right from the start,hes an old contemptible,he won his first military medal on the 10th april 1918 and his second on the 20th april,this was during the germans march offensive,i will see what else i can find" and his MMs are not on the card,only his campaign medals are on it,and they are not dated,an old contemtible was a soldier who was in france +flanders right from the start,our army was very small compared to the germans and the german kaiser said who is this contemptible little army and the name stuck he didnt do anything wrong,he was probably only a temp lance corporal for the war period,the colours are when you are serving with the regt itself,eg,if a man signs on for 12yrs,he will serve 7yrs with the colours and 5 in the reserve,when the war started he was at woolwich,he sailed to france and landed on 11-8-1914 at havre as part of the 19th brigade,on 22-8-14 he was fighting around valenciennes,when the war ended,he was sat having a cup of tea at sassegnies,south west of aulnoye,he was in the 1st battalion middlesex regt,you need to get in touch with the person who mounted his medals,there should be a mons clasp on his 1914 star,its missing,its a important part of the medals,not many old contemtibles survived the war, I also wondered if the medals (at least one of them- the bravery one) are mounted correctly ? can anyone help with further information, thanks, Pauline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tierney Posted 23 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 23 August , 2005 here is his medal card, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPotter Posted 23 August , 2005 Share Posted 23 August , 2005 Pauline, His MIC confirms the entitlement to the Aug-Nov bar for the 1914 star. These can be purchased readily from medal dealers and cost around £30 these days. His medals are indeed mounted correctly in what is known as 'court' style on what appear to be more modern ribbons. A very nice set to an Old Contemptible. There may well be another two cards for the award of each of his Military Medals, but these are in a different series to the MICs. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tierney Posted 23 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 23 August , 2005 Thank you for the information Steve, Do you know where I can find out what his acts of bravery were. thanks Pauline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 23 August , 2005 Share Posted 23 August , 2005 hello pauline,your in good hands on here,these folks will help you,bernard [ mack ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 23 August , 2005 Share Posted 23 August , 2005 Pauline, His "two" Military Medals (the Medal and bar) were not both won in April 1918. The London Gazette page that is linked here announces his Bar to the MM (i.e. the 2nd award). Note that it refers to the first MM award as being announced in the Gazette of the 1-9-1916. This means that the card above showing the dates 10th & 20th (or 10th to 20th) refers to one award (the 2nd). http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType= London Gazette 29-8-1918 Page 10110 (page 2 of 40 in issue) His Majesty the KING Has been graciously pleased to approve of the award of a Bar to the Military Medal to the undermentioned Noncommissioned Officers and Men:— 10983 L./C. W. Allen, M.M., Mdx. R. (Chalk Farm). (M.M.'s gazetted 1st September, 1916.) The London Gazette dates are usually some 3 or more months after the date when the medal was won. Obviously, in 1918 this was about 4 months (there was a bit of a sweat on as the German Offensive raged). In 1916 this was more like 3 months. Therefore the award of the first MM would have been about the end of May/beginning of June 1916. Unfortunately very few citations survive for MMs and these are not shown in the London Gazette in any case. There may be a mention in his local paper, the regiment museum may have details of some or he may get a mention in the Units war diary (though many "Other Ranks" did not) Hope this helps, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 23 August , 2005 Share Posted 23 August , 2005 And the link to his first MM: http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType= London Gazette 1-9-1916 (extract) Issue 29731, Page 8653 (page 1 of 8 of issue) War Office, 1st September, 1916. His Majesty the KING has been graciously pleased to award the Military Medal for bravery in the field to the undermentioned Ladies and non-commissioned Officers and Men: — 10983 Pte. W. Allen, Midd'x R. The Gazette pages are PDF files. You will need a PDF reader (like Acrobat) to read them but you can print or save them as you wish. Steve. P.S. Lance-Corporal was an appointment not a rank, so often would not show up as a rank on some of the official documents, especially once he had finished active service... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradley Posted 25 August , 2005 Share Posted 25 August , 2005 to have survived all 4 years is truly astonishing,........does anybody know how many old contemptibles got thru the great war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 26 August , 2005 Share Posted 26 August , 2005 Pauline My grandfather, also an Allen, wa sin the 1st battalion Middlesex. Have at look at my website to see what the battalion did. Link as signature. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tierney Posted 26 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 26 August , 2005 Steve, Thank you very much for your time and for all that information, I'm off to check the links now. I'm very grateful for all the help, this is my first foray into researching Military connections. thanks Pauline sorry for delay in replying I don't seem to be receiving notification of replies although it says I am.?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tierney Posted 26 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 26 August , 2005 Howard, I've just found your web site and am having a quick look, how did you find out which regiment of the Middx your grandfather was in, I just know it's the Middlesex would be interested to learn if I can find this out too. thanks Pauline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 26 August , 2005 Share Posted 26 August , 2005 Provided you don't mind paying another £3.50 you should be able to confirm which Battalion he was in by downloading his MM MIC: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=3 They nearly always include the battalion he was in on the card. Although from his Service medals card it does look like it was 1st Battalion from the 1/ prefix (and a pretty low number and his date to France suggest a pre-war regular soldier or recalled reservist) Alternatively the Medal Rolls at the NA will give more information. To be honest, Bernard/Mack seems pretty sure he was 1st Battalion. I assume he would not have said that without some sort of proof? Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tierney Posted 26 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 26 August , 2005 Thank you again, will download that today definitely worth £3.50 was that a 1 on his other card I thought it was an L? sorry another question - what are the medal rolls and are they at Kew? Pauline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 26 August , 2005 Share Posted 26 August , 2005 That is an L you're looking at. I was talking about the "1/" part of what seems to be "1/Middx R" on the Medal Card. The Medal Rolls are the books held at Kew of the medal entitlements of WW1 soldiers. They will give the full detail of his unit (There are some exceptions, but not generally with Infantry Regiments). The Medal Index Card is in fact an Index to these books. The letters and numbers next to the Medal entitlement are the References to locate these books in the Archive. Once you have the unit he was in they may not give you much more information than you already know... Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 26 August , 2005 Share Posted 26 August , 2005 Hang on a minute. It also says on the Search results page that he was 1st Middlesex. That's where Mack got his info from! These can sometimes be mistranslated but I would think we're OK in this case... Anyway, up to you whether you want his MM card... Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tierney Posted 26 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 26 August , 2005 Steve, Ermm, I gues I'm going back in the corner again...... I've had a look at the search card, for the first medals and of course it says that, just shows you have to look at everything so carefully, and of course I didn't. Many apologies.. I will download the other card just in case there's any more info to be gleaned... thanks again Pauline. ( I was in the corner on the other forum, as Mack/Bernard knows, he's always helping us genealogy searching people out..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tierney Posted 26 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 26 August , 2005 Hello again, I have downloaded the card now, but as you predicted not a lot more (I think) to be added, have attached the file, there may be others who are interested in the card of Allen's Pauline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 26 August , 2005 Share Posted 26 August , 2005 I take it that it is the one with the writing across it. It's a little small to read. Does it confirm 1st Battalion? What does the diagonal writing say? Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tierney Posted 26 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 26 August , 2005 Howard, have spent a long time looking at your fantastic website, do you mind if I include some of the history of the 1st middx in my family history, I will obviously name you as the source. could you also tell me where I can find out ( I notice you say your grandfather was noted in despatches )could I find out whether my grandather was also mentioned, and for what actions his medals were awarded, I can't seem to find the middlesex regimental museum.... thanks Pauline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tierney Posted 26 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 26 August , 2005 Steve, thats the one. it does say Corps: 1st Bn.Middx R there are a lot of nmbers at the top right hand corner, and FRANCE, 0137/279657 (could be a / not a 7) 41371 the diagonal writing says.(I think) Bar awarded LG 29 .???St 8 ....62?/21/579 France 179322 will go and crop the image and just post that one... Pauline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tierney Posted 26 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 26 August , 2005 heres the bigger image Pauline it wont let me add it ermmmm have to try again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tierney Posted 26 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 26 August , 2005 try again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 26 August , 2005 Share Posted 26 August , 2005 The dates for the Bar would be 29-8-1918 (the Gazette date). The France references refer to the place where the medal was won. (Note an Egypt one in the bottom right corner of the downloaded page) The numbers probably refer to the Medal Rolls again, but I have never looked one up so I can't recognise any layout. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tierney Posted 26 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 26 August , 2005 thank you for all the help Steve, much appreciated, when I finally get to Kew I will be armed with all my new knowledge and cards to help me, I don't live too far away so can easily make the trip.. maybe soon. thanks Pauline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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