aliecoco Posted 22 July , 2003 Share Posted 22 July , 2003 Hi, I have watched a couple of programmes this afternoon on WW1, the second was concerning Loos and Kipling, on the UK history channel. I just wondered about the poem John's father wrote called Common Form. The programme ended with this poem. If any question why we died, Tell them, because our Fathers lied. Does Rudyard consider the 'Father' to be him, as he 'pulled strings' to get his son signed up, despite him being turned down twice because of his poor eye sight. Or are my thoughts completely off track??!! Any opinions on this would be great! Alie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevew Posted 22 July , 2003 Share Posted 22 July , 2003 I have read that as being the interpretion of poem............. But, the words refer to the many and not the individual - so perhaps it means something different. As I think about it's meaning several different things all at once Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 23 July , 2003 Share Posted 23 July , 2003 Alie, I think Kinpling is referring to people in authority in many fields, which of course would include himself, as a responsible parent. In other words, collective guilt, though in mentioning "fathers" he turns an accussing finger on himself too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 23 July , 2003 Share Posted 23 July , 2003 Alie, I read somewhere though i can not rememeber where at the moment that the main insperation for this was because of the guilt he felt over his sons death and the part he played in getting him a commission. If i can source the quote i will post it later as its one of my pet hates to not know the reference to a quote. Regardless you can not help surmising that he carrried some guilt and this must have been upper most in his mind when he wrote this peom.Though in a broader frame he could also been refering to all those that caused the war by action or inaction. Myself i look at the word 'Lied' and see a different meaning from that normally inturpreted. I see him to mean that they got it wrong. This is a simplication of what i mean but i find it hard in this instance to put what i mean into words. Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliecoco Posted 23 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 23 July , 2003 Hi Steve Kate and Arm Thanks all for the replies. Its amazing how many interpretations one line in a poem can generate! I agree, his guilt must of been so heavy as he wrote this, especially as he spent the rest of his life looking for his son. I know exactly what you mean, arm, when you mentioned the 'Lied' part and how they got it wrong. All food for thought! Alie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 23 July , 2003 Share Posted 23 July , 2003 Burdened with his own individual guilt in respect of John, his poem also encompasses the collective guilt of his generation of men of power whose inadequacies sent their sons to their deaths ; made widows of their daughters and plunged their wives into an abyss of mourning. Enormous heart-felt power in these few deceptively simple words in couplet form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 23 July , 2003 Share Posted 23 July , 2003 It was one of a number of bitter couplets written by Kipling after his son was killed. They are discussed in the book "My Boy Jack" by Tonie and Valmai Holt. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 23 July , 2003 Share Posted 23 July , 2003 I think his son's death took every bit of the jingo out of Kipling. I feel he was refering to himself and the nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 23 July , 2003 Share Posted 23 July , 2003 I sneaked a quick look at Martin Seymour Smith's biography of Kipling in a bookshop today. He mentions that the Kiplings' marriage virtually broke down in the post war years. He also recounts Kipling's almost pathological hatred of Germans, and his belief that they had harvested dead bodies for food. Here was a man wracked by guilt, it seems. He had lost his only son, the body was lost, and he was left (like so many parents in far less traumatic circumstances) to imagine the very worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliecoco Posted 24 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 24 July , 2003 Hi Ian, Tim, Paul and Kate, Great to read your thoughts, Ian's was 'moving'!! Kate - Thanks for sneaking a look in a book shop! How interesting. I did not think about their marriage etc. Perhaps his wife always blamed him too for the loss of their son. Perhaps because they had only one child, they had problems, which makes his loss even more difficult which put pressure on their marriage. I must get the two books mentioned in this thread!! I have been to the western front quite a few times now, but not to Loos. I must start to plan a visit!! Alie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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