Chris Boonzaier Posted 9 August , 2005 Share Posted 9 August , 2005 I am having trouble "placing enemies", I am trying to find out which allied unit fought the 9th Bavarian Regz at messines after the mines went up. The 9th were sitting on the two southernmost mines in the warneton area. Could it have been the Australians? Is there any good allied accounts from men who fought in this southern part of the battle? Thanks Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 9 August , 2005 Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Chris Have you looked at Ian Passingham's Pillars of Fire? This area is covered in general terms on pp 140-144 and there is a lot more detail elsewhere in the text. The troops involved were definitely Australian, from either 3rd or 4th Divisions, but I am not sufficiently knowledgeable about this battle to be able to say precisely who was involved. If you have a map of exactly where the Bavarian's position was, then someone with access to the Australian records should be able to pin it down exactly. If you do not have a map yourself, then it is a racing certainty that there will be at least one in the files of the Regiment in the Kriegsarchiv in Munich. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 9 August , 2005 Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Chris I have had a closer look at the maps in Pillars of Fire and I think that initially the troops involved may well have been from 9th Brigade, 3rd Aus Div, so, if that is correct, the units would have been from 33rd, 34th, 35th or 36th Bns. What muddies the water is that not all troops from 9th Bav Inf Regt were involved from the start. Atleast one reserve bn took part in an attempted counter-attack and I do not know if by that stage of the day the Australians had also bruoght forward reserves. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Jones Posted 9 August , 2005 Share Posted 9 August , 2005 The craters were at Trench 122, the right crater was beneath Factory Farm. The notes that I made for a battlefield tour in 1997 state that the 33rd Bn AIF captured the left hand crater which obliterated the end of a communication trench. German machine gun fire from a concrete shelter 100 yards up Ultimo Lane could not be silenced until 4am when it was mortared by 12 Stokes bombs from 9th Light Trench Mortar Battery. The Factory Farm crater remained 150 yards within German territory but Australian snipers prevented the Germans from occupying it. Regards Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 9 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Thanks guys, that is a help. I have the map in the 9th bavarian I.R. regimentakl history, but it has few details. I am trying to find out about a man in the 3rd company, they were in reserve when the mines went up, but counter attacked. the man in question recieved bullet wounds on the 7th of June, and died on the 15th in an allied field hospital. I assume there is nothing detailed enough, but the above is a start. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 9 August , 2005 Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Try the official history Chris. http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/ww1/4/page.asp?gotopage=588 Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 9 August , 2005 Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Chris I assume that the man you are after is Gefreiter Valentin Volpert, born in Seifriedsburg 7 Sep 1893 and buried in Block 4 Grab 847 at Vermandovillers? I suppose it is possible that there may be a mention of his name somewhere in the allied records, especially if he died in one of their field hospitals. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 9 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Chris I assume that the man you are after is Gefreiter Valentin Volpert, born in Seifriedsburg 7 Sep 1893 and buried in Block 4 Grab 847 at Vermandovillers? I suppose it is possible that there may be a mention of his name somewhere in the allied records, especially if he died in one of their field hospitals. Jack <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I tip my hat to the master ! Now... if you want to really impress... who was his brother and where is he buried :-)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 9 August , 2005 Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Chris I'm guessing a bit here, because you did not give me any clues, but I think that it might have been Infanterist Kaspar Volpert who was killed whilst acting as a stretcherbearer with 8th Coy, probably by artillery fire, during a brief halt by 2nd Bn Bav Inf Regt 9 at Pont-de-Nieppe on 20 Apr 18. He is buried at Pont-de-Nieppe cemetery Block 2 Grab 40. He too was born in Seifriedsburg on 22 Sep 1886. Is this the one? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 9 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Indeed.... an E-applause sounds :-) The regiment was on the way to Kemmel and stoppedover at Nieppe, he along with 7-8 comrades was killed by heavy artillery. the parents wrote to the company commander to complain that only a few things had been sent back home, the company commander wrote back saying there was not a lot more to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 9 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2005 The two.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 9 August , 2005 Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Chris Thanks for posting the portraits. Of course for us, detached and separated by years, it's simply interesting, but it must have been a terrible tragedy for the family. I wonder if they were related to Georg Volpert, same regiment, killed in autumn of 1914? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 9 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Maybe, but not from the same town. The town today has grown to 485 inhabitants, I am not sure how many back then. 15 of the men who served were killed, 37 survived. 5 were volperts including the 2 who were killed. Of the Volperts 3 had the same first name...kaspar. Here are some shots of the town http://www.seifriedsburg.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 9 August , 2005 Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Now that's interesting. I see that it has a 'Kasper-Volpert Strasse' Is that named after the dead man? Are there any other similar examples there? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 9 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2005 A good question... I will hopefully soon visit there and see if I can find anything out. by chance I got the 2 award certificates for the iron crosses of the brotheres, a certficate for the next of kin medal and some letters concerning their deaths. it awakened my interest. Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 9 August , 2005 Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Chris Well best of luck with the continuing research for your book, which I am sure will be fascinating when it appears. I hope you enjoy your trip down to Franken. I lived down that way in Oberleichtersbach near Bad Brueckenau for two years at one time. Very peaceful and attractive. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 10 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2005 Hi, Here are the letters, the graves seem to have moved In the field 9.11.17 Dear Mr Wolpert It is my painful duty to write to you today. An official letter from the Bavarian war ministry arrived at the company today confirming the death of your son Valentin. An English official report announced his death caused by bullet wounds in the chest and spine. He died in the B.E.F. 10th General Hospital on the 15.6.17 and was buried at the church at St. Etienne, grave no 50. This confrms that your son died a heroes death in enemy territory. In the name of the company I send out condolances to you and your family. May God give you strength to overcome this heavy loss. The hero, who was one of the best, bravest and most popular soldiers in the company, will remain in our memories. His death came to soon. The official death certificate will be sent to you in the following days as will the formula to entitle you to the recompensation. If you have any further questions I am at your service. I close off with my sincere condolences ad remain yours Martin Wohlleben, Feldwebel 9. bayr. Inf. Regt Im Felde 24.4.18 8. Komp. Dear Mr Wolpert! It is with my duty, with my sincerest condolences, to inform you that your son, Infanterist (Krankenträger) Kaspar Wolpert was killed on the 20.4.1918. An enemy bombardment hit his quaters, instantly killing him and a number of comrades. He was buried in the Nieppe cemetry. His estate will be forwarded to you by registered mail. The company has lost a brave soldier and good comrade. May it be a consolation to you in these difficult times, that your son, like so many otheres, sacrificed his life for his fatherland. With great respect, I remain Yours XXX Leutnant u. Komp. Führer 9. bayr. Inf. Regt Im Felde 11.5.18 8. Komp. To Mr Kaspar Wolpert (sic) Seifriedsburg In answer to your letter from the 5.5.18 I must tell you that your son Kaspar Wolpert (sic) was killed with numerous comrades by enemy artillery. As soon as the bombardement was over the area was inspected and only the items mentioned in the accompanying letter were found and returned to you. It is very unfortunate in these trying times that we cannot send the complete estate of the deceased to the parents. In this particular case it was made impossible due to the fact that the shell that landed in the middle of the group was of a heavy calibre and destroyed most of the possesions. Völker Leutnant u. Komp. Führer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted 13 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 13 August , 2005 Here we go, this was the action valentin was wounded in. he must have been picked up by the australians and brought to the BEF field hospital, Volume IV - The Australian Imperial Force in France: 1917 At 7 o'clock the evidence of an impending counter attack was detected along the 9th Brigades front. The men of the 34th digging beyond Grey farm saw, as already mentioned, troops moving northwards up the third German line ("Uncertain Trench") at potterie Farm. later, about 8:30, these were observed dribbling forward into the slight dip, 400 yards east of the 34th's new trench, where they were lost to view. The 33rd on the extreme right observed men flooding similarly into the area 300 yards south-east of the right flank. At Grey Farm Captain Stewart obtained the help of some of the 9th Brigade's Stokes mortars under Lieutenant Chapman. On their bombs exploding in the dip, the germans were seen to run back to the third Line, the 34th shoting at their backs. The German movement had also been reported to the Artillery by a forward observing officer, who at 8.38, judging this advance to be a definate counter-attack, asked for an S.O.S. barrage. Airmen also reported that between 7 and 8 o'clock German troops were massing on the roads near Warneton, a mile and a quarter to the east. The artillery and machine-guns opened on the artillery observers call, and all signs of counter attack quickly ceased. According to the Regimental history.. At 5:40 am the regimental reserve (3rd and 4th Komp.) recieved the order to counter attack and retake position Ad. Inspite of heavy enemy artillery fire the companies made it to the II. Stellung (. they were joined here by the 6th and 7th Komp. but the further advance fell to pieces under heavy enemy fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat McLachlan Posted 18 August , 2005 Share Posted 18 August , 2005 FYI, both craters are still there. I took some shots as part of my Messines walking tour for my book, so I will post them later this evening. Cheers, Mat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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