admssrchr11 Posted 6 August , 2005 Share Posted 6 August , 2005 The soldier receiving the award is my grandfather, William T. Soutar. The picture says he was in the Royal Highland Regiment, Black Watch. His award card says he was in the Royal Scots. Are these units one and the same? This web site has been very helpful. Thanks Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 7 August , 2005 Share Posted 7 August , 2005 Hi Jim Great photo. Nice to chat to you in the chat Room last night. Just a thought he may have been attached to Royal Highland Regiment at time, the only way you will fine out for sure is by looking at his 1915 Star and Victory/British Medal Roll entries. Medal roll entries for Infantry units should record all units that a man served in evan ones that they were attached to. You could ask in the Document section if anyone who is visiting NA will look at his roll entries for you. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 7 August , 2005 Share Posted 7 August , 2005 Hello Jim Are you sure that the person in the photo is your grandfather? as there are several entrys for W or William Soutar Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) on the online MICs. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roy litchfield Posted 7 August , 2005 Share Posted 7 August , 2005 Hello Jim, I may be stating the obvious but your G/dad appears to be wearing a Royal Scots bonnet badge. Best wishes Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admssrchr11 Posted 7 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 7 August , 2005 Hello Jim Are you sure that the person in the photo is your grandfather? as there are several entrys for W or William Soutar Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) on the online MICs. Andy <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes he is. I received this photo from my aunt whose son put the info on the photo. I saw the cap insignia right away. But it's still a great photo. I am positive that this is my grandfather. This came from his personal records and it looks just like him and his sons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 7 August , 2005 Share Posted 7 August , 2005 Hello Jim With the caption I thought it must have come out of a book but as it came from his personal records then there can be no doubt. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredJCarss Posted 7 August , 2005 Share Posted 7 August , 2005 Hi Jim Do you have any idea which battalion he was attached to? (I dont know of a W.T.Soutar getting the MM but records can be wrong) If the family still have his medals what details are impressed on them? Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_59 Posted 7 August , 2005 Share Posted 7 August , 2005 Would'nt it have been a gallantry award being pinned to his uniform, as it was during the war. dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 7 August , 2005 Share Posted 7 August , 2005 Maybe not the MM but the DCM instead: http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType= London Gazette 14-11-1916 18433 Pte. W. T. Soutar, R. Scots. "For conspicuous gallantry in action. He handled his platoon with great courage and determination. Later he reorganised his men and consolidated the position with marked skill and coolness." Probably won around September 1916? Attack on Martinpuich at Flers-Courcelette perhaps? 15th Division, 45th Brigade had the 13th Btn. there. But only a guess mind you! (Or High Wood attack in mid-August is possible) This should be the DCM MIC. They very often give the full unit details. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=1 Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 7 August , 2005 Share Posted 7 August , 2005 Oh, and the Service Medals MIC on the other page looks like it confirms "13/Royal Scots" (i.e. 13th Battalion Royal Scots) More than likely at Martinpuich... I think they were active in the attack. 45 and 46 Brigade were certainly the two assault brigades that day... http://www.1914-1918.net/15div.htm Next stop 13th Royal Scots War Diary? Derek aka 9th Black Watch has a copy of the 9th Black Watch War diary if you think he may have been attached to them. It may just be that he was receiving his medal from the Divisional/Corps commander along with members of the 9th Black Watch? Steve. P.S> Does anyone else think that the man at the front looks like Damien Lewis of Band of Brothers fame (and the man at the back looks about 14?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admssrchr11 Posted 7 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 7 August , 2005 Thanks everyone for their time and comments. I'll have to check with my aunt to see how she determined he was in the Black Watch. She has all my grandfather's things. Here is a copy of his discharge papers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Godden Posted 8 August , 2005 Share Posted 8 August , 2005 Hi Jim, I have PMed you regarding your man. Like I said, I will have a look in the diary to see if it says anything. Thanks for posting the photo and card. Cheers, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Godden Posted 9 August , 2005 Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Hi Jim, I have looked through the war diary and cannot find anything directly related to W.T. Soutar. This is not, however, that surprising given that Robert Dunsire's V.C. also goes unmentioned, as indeed does his subsequent death in action a few months later. The action, therefore, remains somewhat of a mystery. I will keep looking just incase I find anything. The official history also has nothing in reference to the award. I do have him amongst the list of 13th battalion men who were awarded the DCM, but that has, I believe, already been established. As far as the confusion between the Black Watch and Royal Scots, it may be due to the BW's name during the war which was The Royal Highlanders. I have also met people who think that every Scots regiment is The Black Watch. I will keep looking, just in case, but I am sorry to say that I have had no luck so far. Cheers, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Godden Posted 9 August , 2005 Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Hi Jim, I have done a little more researching through the diary and have come out with a few dates where the photo could have been taken. Between the dates 1st September 1916 through until 1st January 1917 there were four occasions that I can see that may have had an awards ceremony included. They were: 25th September - Inspection by G.O.C. 45th Brigade 9th November - Inspection by Haig 14th November - Inspection by C.O. 28th November - Inspection by G.O.C. 15th Division I will see if I can name the various C.O.s over the next few hours and then maybe someone on the forum will be able to identify them. In addition I have been looking through the MIC and your Grandad was an original member of the battalion, setting foot in France with the battalion. I will let you know if I manage to find anything further. Cheers, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admssrchr11 Posted 9 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Hi Jim, I have looked through the war diary and cannot find anything directly related to W.T. Soutar. This is not, however, that surprising given that Robert Dunsire's V.C. also goes unmentioned, as indeed does his subsequent death in action a few months later. The action, therefore, remains somewhat of a mystery. I will keep looking just incase I find anything. The official history also has nothing in reference to the award. I do have him amongst the list of 13th battalion men who were awarded the DCM, but that has, I believe, already been established. As far as the confusion between the Black Watch and Royal Scots, it may be due to the BW's name during the war which was The Royal Highlanders. I have also met people who think that every Scots regiment is The Black Watch. I will keep looking, just in case, but I am sorry to say that I have had no luck so far. Cheers, Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks Tim - I appreciate you taking the time to look up the information. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admssrchr11 Posted 9 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Hi Jim, I have done a little more researching through the diary and have come out with a few dates where the photo could have been taken. Between the dates 1st September 1916 through until 1st January 1917 there were four occasions that I can see that may have had an awards ceremony included. They were: 25th September - Inspection by G.O.C. 45th Brigade 9th November - Inspection by Haig 14th November - Inspection by C.O. 28th November - Inspection by G.O.C. 15th Division I will see if I can name the various C.O.s over the next few hours and then maybe someone on the forum will be able to identify them. In addition I have been looking through the MIC and your Grandad was an original member of the battalion, setting foot in France with the battalion. I will let you know if I manage to find anything further. Cheers, Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks Tim, Now remember, I'm new at this but what diary are you referring to and how can I buy a copy of it? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Godden Posted 9 August , 2005 Share Posted 9 August , 2005 The 13th battlion war diary. It is available to copy at the Public Records Office. Although it is said to be one of the largest diaries on record. It has pretty much everything in terms of movements and orders from the start to end of overseas service. I am very interested in the battalion so decided to get the whole thing copied. It fills two A3 folders comfortably and I would guess is a 500-600 pages. Some of it is handwritten and some is typed. It is an incredible asset to have and has helped me no end. If you need anything else looked up just ask until you decide whether you would like a copy yourself. Cheers, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 9 August , 2005 Share Posted 9 August , 2005 15th Division's GOC on the Somme was Major General F W N McCracken KCB DSO. Looking at profile, hair and build it could well be him? http://www.militariamuseum.com/collection/...cCrackenBio.htm Then, again there wasn't a major amount of difference in the look of a lot of the Generals... Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Godden Posted 17 August , 2005 Share Posted 17 August , 2005 Steve, This may well be the man. Although, your observation regarding the outward appearances of the Generals of the time must also be taken into account. However, I don't think it is Haig. So that would leave either McCraken, or one of the other two. Lt.-Col. G.M. Hannay was the 13th's C.O. at the time. So that just leaves the 45th Bde.'s C.O. at the time. If anyone has the 15th Division history at hand may be it will say in there. Then it is just a case of finding photos. My only suggestion would be that it cannot be Hannay as he would presumably have had Regimental headgear on, i.e. a Glengarry. Which just leaves the 45th Brigade Commander. Thanks for the photo Steve, you've now started me off on another little quest! Cheers, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 17 August , 2005 Share Posted 17 August , 2005 Hi Tim & Steve, I pulled the medal rolls for Jim the other day and can confirm that in WO329/631 it lists Sgt. W.T.Soutar # 18433 as 13th Royal Scots. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob B Posted 19 August , 2005 Share Posted 19 August , 2005 Hi Tim & Steve, I pulled the medal rolls for Jim the other day and can confirm that in WO329/631 it lists Sgt. W.T.Soutar # 18433 as 13th Royal Scots. Andy <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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