German bomber at Foreness Point Margate - 17 June

[Regulus 1]

Hi,

It seems that a German bomber landed at this place in a field, after the crew did get lost in the fog while bombing Ostend - according to Martin Easdown in a Glint in the Sky...

Not really realistic. A German bomber bombing the German held harbour of Ostend ? Getting lost in the fog and landing in England ? Should I take this seriously ? What kind of bomber ? Gotha ? On what real mission ? Serving in which unit ? Bogohl 3 ?

There is also said that they were apprehended just before they wanted to set fire to their machine. Does anyone know who the crew were ?

Ah so many questions ! Thanks and best from Johan

[Regulus 1]

Jus trying to bring this back to the forum members attention...

Best from Johan

[Jonathan Saunders]

If no PALS from this Forum have the answer you could try The Aerodrome Forum.

Also what page is this on? I have just tried looking it up by cross referencing with "Ostend" in the index but no joy.

[Dolphin]

Johan

Like Jonathan, I can't find the reference in A Glint in the Sky.

I did look at the lists in Casualties of the German Air Services 1914-1920, and the only non-fatal entries for 17 June 1917 are a pilot from Jasta 6 who was wounded at Lille and an observer from FEA 486 who was injured in a crash. It's probably just me, but I also looked in The Air Defence of Great Britain 1914-1918 and The First Battle of Britain, and couldn't see mention of the straying Gotha in those books either.

The German specialists at The Aerodrome might be your best hope.

Regards

Gareth

[Regulus 1]

Hi,

Thanks Jonathan and Gareth !

I forgot to mention the year, 1918 and it can be found on page 146, last lines of the page above the photo of the Gotha GV.

Nobody at the aerodrome knows of the story either, and concerning German bomber history, I should know a lot, so this a frustrating story to me !

Best from Johan

[Dolphin]

Johan

I still can't find anything about the event in 1918, but the story does seem rather similar to the events on 22 December 1917, when a Gotha from Bogohl 3 crewed by Uffz G Hoffman, Ltn W Döbrick and Vzfw H Klaus approached Westgate a low level. The Gotha had suffered severe engine problems over the English Channel, so the crew jettisoned their bombs and decided to land, which they did at 1800 at Hartsdown Farm near Margate. Ltn Döbrick set fire to the aircraft with a signal cartridge. However, the location isn't Foreness Point and the date isn't the same as the incident you're investigating.

The event is mentioned in Volume 5 of The War in the Air and The Air Defence of Great Britain 1914-1918. I couldn't see mention of a similar event on 17 June 1918.

Could the date quoted in A Glint in the Sky be incorrect and/or the details be confused?

Regards

Gareth

[Regulus 1]

Hi Gareth,

I start to think that it should be anything of that kind. I couldn't find anything on German side on the matter, and neither in any of the British books and sources I have looked at. Neither did you, so probably something went wrong in this matter or as you said it, confused.

Will try that as a basis and see what I possibly can come up with.

Thank you very much and best from Johan

[Regulus 1]

Hi again,

I've got two crews killed at Margate on 22 August 1917, so this story (KIA) does not fit, there is also :

22 December 1917

At a quarter to six a Gotha attacking England dropped it’s bombs at sea and did a forced landing near the Water Tower, probably south east of Westgate, as engines seem to have failed. Pilot fired a red light before landing. Pilot set fire to machine after landing and surrendered to the Margate police with two other crew members.

Doesn't really fit also as the plane was destroyed..

and another possibility :

20 May 1918

There is also a report of a bomber being brought down by gunfire off Foreness, near the Elbow Boy, falling in flames in the sea, didn’t sink immediately as it fired one or two distress signals, no wreckage recovered.

This is probably the crew :

- Vizefeldwebel Lüdke a pilot was taken POW

- Lt. Schiffer an observer was taken POW

- Unteroff. Wallerand a gunner was taken POW

So this could be the mix-up...

Best from Johan

[Jonathan Saunders]

My thoughts are it is the 20 May incident, but Martin Easdown took his source from a local newspaper of the time that reported the incident, possibly on rumour, but certainly without having full knowledge of the facts (or date) - and probably for very good reasons.

[Regulus 1]

Which explains it all perfectly, thank you very much Jonathan ! BTW I found it an excellent book, very well detailed etc. But this was a story that was 'haunting' me as I didn't find anything on the matter to confirm the event.

Best from Johan

[Rick]

Johan

I still can't find anything about the event in 1918, but the story does seem rather similar to the events on 22 December 1917, when a Gotha from Bogohl 3 crewed by Uffz G Hoffman, Ltn W Döbrick and Vzfw H Klaus approached Westgate a low level.  The Gotha had suffered severe engine problems over the English Channel, so the crew jettisoned their bombs and decided to land, which they did at 1800 at Hartsdown Farm near Margate.  Ltn Döbrick set fire to the aircraft with a signal cartridge.  However, the location isn't Foreness Point and the date isn't the same as the incident you're investigating.

The event is mentioned in Volume 5 of The War in the Air and The Air Defence of Great Britain 1914-1918.  I couldn't see mention of a similar event on 17 June 1918.

Could the date quoted in A Glint in the Sky be incorrect and/or the details be confused? 

Regards

Gareth

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gareth, may I be so bold as to your source for the crew names for the 22Dec17 incident? I've found reports of this occurence in 'The Defense of Great Britain 1914-1918', just not the crew names. Always looking for new info. Thanks, Rick

[Doug Johnson]

Hi,

The HQ RFC recorded every German aircraft or wreck in the UK. According to my copy of British Military Aircraft Serials the 22 dec 1917 Gotha wreck was registered as AB4. The last was AB9 registered on 19th May 1918, one of four Gothas registered on the same day. All the aircraft registered appear to be wrecks. I can't believe they missed the chance to register a complete one.

Doug

Doug

[Rick]

Doug, thanks for the reply. I have never heard of this British Report, although it certainly makes complete sense. Does the report list crew names, as well as aircraft serial numbers, locations, etc., etc. ?? I would be especially interested in crew names. How can I go about obtaining these?? Rick

[Doug Johnson]

It is actually a book by Bruce Robertson. There are several editions and my latest one is dated 1979. It recently resurfaced when I moved after spending at least the last ten years in the loft. It lists all the British military serials from 1 to ZA250. There may be more up to date issues of the book than my copy. There is no indication of the original source for the data.

Amongst the series are several for "captured" WW1 aircraft, most of which were wrecks. The series are;

The G series starting in 1917 ending with G167 an LVG "captured" on the 11th April 1918 of which only the engine was salvaged.

The XG series from 1 - 14 for aircraft captured before the G series started but allocated retrospectively after the G series started.

The AB series for the UK "captures"

The AG series for Italy after Dec 1917

From march 1918 the G series stopped in favour a series which by brigade being G/HQ, G/1Bde, G/2Bde, G/3Bde, G/5Bge and G/10Bge

Some serial numbers are listed together with some brief details.

eg G/2Bde/15 Fokker DrI 517/17 captured 9th June 1918. Shot down near Dickenbusch. Engine and parachute to UK.

For others the entry is less useful eg G152 unidentified, 22nd March 1918, down in flames, not salvaged. (this may have been Hanover C.13188, the clue to this is on this site under PoWs)

Many of the aircraft captured intact were flow to the UK and the 1919 Janes AWA used many photographs of them (I have a 1969 reprint).

Doug

[Regulus 1]

Doug, just like Rick I'm very interested ! Could you tell us more such as title, editor etc ?

Thanks !

Johan

[Dolphin]

Gareth, may I be so bold as to your source for the crew names for the 22Dec17 incident?  I've found reports of this occurence in 'The Defense of Great Britain 1914-1918', just not the crew names.  Always looking for new info.  Thanks,  Rick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rick

The names are on page 363 of Cole and Cheesman's The Air Defence of Britain 1914-1918; ISBN 0 370 30538 8.

I hope this helps

Gareth

[Rick]

Thanks much, will try and find a copy. The one I have was written by a Captain Morris. R.

[Doug Johnson]

Doug, just like Rick I'm very interested ! Could you tell us more such as title, editor etc ?

My latest edition is "British Military Aircraft Serials 1911-1979" by Bruce Robertson, pub Patrick Stephens, ISBN 0 85059 360 3. This is the fifth revised edition. The first edition of 1964 was revised twice. Note that the first edition does not have all the G numbers in that the later edition has. There may be later editions than mine.

Doug

[Regulus 1]

Doug,

Sincere thanks, now I know what to look for !

Best from Johan

[domsim]

Just did a quick search of the British Library website and there is a later edition of Robertson's book:

Main Author: Robertson, Bruce, 1920-

Title Details: British military aircraft serials, 1878-1987 / compiled by Bruce Robertson

Publisher: Leicester : Midland Counties, c1987

Physical desc.: 251p : ill ; 22cm

ISBN/ISSN: 090459761X

Note: New ed. - Previous ed.: i.e. 5th rev. ed. : published as British Military aircraft serials, 1911-1979. Cambridge : Stephens, 1979

Cheers

Dominic

[Regulus 1]

Even better ! Thanks Dominic !

Best from Johan

[Rick]

Gareth,

Cole and Cheesman, page 363. Found it. Thanks a bunch! R.