Andrew P Posted 18 July , 2003 Share Posted 18 July , 2003 Baker's Pals may be interested in the following story which appeared in the Australian newspaper today about a mass grave near Fromelles.The link will take you to the report of it on the Anzac Research forum.http://com2.akheva.com/banzacresearch.fmainchat.t50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 18 July , 2003 Share Posted 18 July , 2003 I find it strange that neither the french Police or the CWGC are interested in investigating this matter further. I would have thought that a police investigation would be mandatory upon discovery of human remains if only to exclude criminal activity. I would also have thought that the Australian Army would have a department who would have to investigate a formal report of the posible remains of Australian soldiers. Imagine how rapidly they would respond if such a discovery were made on a WW2 battlefield or in Vietnam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 18 July , 2003 Share Posted 18 July , 2003 I also find it strange but more from the point of view that the Aussie government does not want to establish the truth of the claim and also to possibly identify the dead held within? Is this a common occurrance with other nations. This is an area i am not too familiar with but i got the impression from posting on this forum that it was practice for the bodies to be dug up and if poss identified and then given correct burial. If there lies under this area 250 soldiers would this constitute one of the largest 'graves' found in recent years Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drummy Posted 18 July , 2003 Share Posted 18 July , 2003 Interesting article, and if right it would be an outrage if the UK or Australian Governments did nothing, or will it take unpaid, local volunteers to do the 'digging' before something is done to confirm if there are men buried there, who deserve a fitting burial in a war cemetery even if they remain unknown Australian's. I wonder if Paul (Reed) can assist with any further info on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 18 July , 2003 Share Posted 18 July , 2003 This appears to be another example of CWGC being castigated by people not understand their role in life - or rather wishing that it was something other than it is. Firstly, if these remains exsist (still not yet proven), they will be the responsibility of the local police. CWGC will become responsible only when they are turned over to them after police investigation and them having proved that they are Commonwealth military. The casualties concerned will already be commemorated by CWGC by name on memorials to the missing. If the bodies are cleared from the field they would be buried by CWGC in an appropriate place. There would be no question of them raising a special memorial to the men as that would contravene their rule of only one commemoration per man. If the bodies remain in the field (again, if they are there), CWGC would possibly erect a memorial block to x number of unknowns in a nearby cemetery. It is correct that CWGC's Charter does not give them the authority to search for remains and they do not do so. Also, a lot will depend on the landowner's attitude. I suggest that we await the outcome of any investigation to see if these remains actually are in this field before talking about memorials. Anyone seen anything in the UK press/TV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 18 July , 2003 Share Posted 18 July , 2003 As far as the experiences I had when I was with the Diggers I can only agree with Terry. In the evantuality of exhumation it is not even CWGC which is responsable for possible identification but the Ministry of Defence. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 18 July , 2003 Share Posted 18 July , 2003 Must confess I have been contacted by the people involved in this, and personally I am not convinced by the 'evidence' they have - which so far they have been unable to show me in great detail. It all revolves around a German account, apparently. What I hear is that the local French archaeology group (ASBF) are not that interested in being involved - which perhaps speaks volumes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 18 July , 2003 Share Posted 18 July , 2003 What also strikes me as odd with the press report cited on this other forum is that if bones were found, why weren't CWGC and the Police contacted immediately? When bones are found, it is the LAW that they must be reported immediately, and as Martial de le Barre, quoted in this report, works for CWGC, then I am highly surprised he has done nothing about it. When bones are found, and identified as WW1 soldiers, CWGC are duty bound to come out and investigate - perhaps Terry will confirm this? It is certainly my experience. Very strange, if it is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 18 July , 2003 Share Posted 18 July , 2003 I agree with Paul - there is something a little irregular in this. This kind of news item also snowballs to an extent. I'm already receiving reports that the remains of 250 soldiers have been found, when no-one really knows how many there are. Indeed, the report which Andrew P drew our attentions to starts with the number 250 being put forward as a statement of fact in the opening sentence, even though the subsequent article explains that this is just a guess. We need to wait and see for a while. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 18 July , 2003 Share Posted 18 July , 2003 Paul It is only the police who have a duty to investigate the discovery of remains. However, if these are identified as being military and not being caused by foul play (wars are not foul play!), the police and any other interested authority invariably call in CWGC (or similar organisation for non-Commonwealth remains) to take over responsibility. It is at this point that the Commission's role begins - identification if possible and proper burial and commemoration. Commemoration will be in the form of an 'Unknown' or a named CWGC headstone as appropriate. In the former case the casualty's name will already be on a memorial and in the second (all too rare nowadays) his name will be removed from the memorial to the missing in due course as it has been replaced by the headstone. In reality, in F&F, this is a common occurance and CWGC are usually informed straight away of any discoveries. Somehow, I think this story is not all it seems. I would have expected it to have been all over UK TV and the tabloids - especially in the summer 'no news' season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 18 July , 2003 Share Posted 18 July , 2003 The latest comment I have seen is here. Air Vice Marshal Gary Beck, from the Office of Australian War Graves, is quoted as saying, "There is absolutely no evidence that there are 250 missing war dead at this site." Looks like we'll have to "wait and see" a bit longer. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevebec Posted 18 July , 2003 Share Posted 18 July , 2003 I agree, as an ex Aussie soldier I think there should be some firm discovery before you go digging up half of France to find these blokes. If these guys think they found the missing then they should contact the Police and go threw the same as evey body else. But this whole thing so far has a funny smell to it. And I am not talking dead bodies. S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 19 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 19 July , 2003 I think the whole matter warrants further investigation to either find that there are remains buried at that spot or that the whole thing is a furphy. I'm surprised Air Marshall Beck made those comments about lack of evidence as the people who brought this whole matter up obviously think they have enough evidence to proceed. Though if nothing is done about this the reports & rumours will continue to circulate, probably to the detriment of the OAWG & CWGC Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 19 July , 2003 Share Posted 19 July , 2003 Though if nothing is done about this the reports & rumours will continue to circulate, probably to the detriment of the OAWG & CWGC I don't see why, when this has nothing to do with the direct nature of their work. They are not a Graves Registration Unit, as still exisits in the American military, charged with the discovery of servicemans remains world wide. I live on a battlefield where 8,500 Canadians died in 1916; some 5,000+ are still missing. Do you suggest CWGC come looking for them here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 19 July , 2003 Share Posted 19 July , 2003 There's been nothing reported in the local papers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 21 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 21 July , 2003 Though if nothing is done about this the reports & rumours will continue to circulate, probably to the detriment of the OAWG & CWGC I don't see why, when this has nothing to do with the direct nature of their work. They are not a Graves Registration Unit, as still exisits in the American military, charged with the discovery of servicemans remains world wide. I live on a battlefield where 8,500 Canadians died in 1916; some 5,000+ are still missing. Do you suggest CWGC come looking for them here? Paul, no one has suggested going up and digging the entire countryside of France or searching for every missing soldier. In fact looking back over this thread I can't see anyone who suggested that. The fact is that much of the population(including some of the Press it seems) DO see the CWGC as having such a responsibility even if their role is not defined as such, which is why I made the comment that if there is going to be adverse publicity about this matter it would probably be at the detriment of the CWGC. I work at an Army Museum and on Sunday we had many people coming in asking if the CWGC & OAWG will investigate the Fromelles matter further. I informed them of the process involved in these matters, but you could see how much interest one press article can generate. The longer this case at Fromelles continues to gather momentum, with nothing being done, the more press articles begin to appear, and rightly or wrongly who do you think will bear the brunt of not investigating the matter further? Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 21 July , 2003 Share Posted 21 July , 2003 Andrew Whilst you are undoubtedly right about the possibility of adverse publicity, you are overlooking the fact that CWGC do not have any authority to investigate and cannot do so just because a sector of the public want it. They could only be an important pressure group on the proper legal authorities in France to carry out such an investigation - if there was any evidence that one was required. So far we have no tangible evidence (at least presented on this Forum) to warrant such action. I am sure if there was tangible evidence, we would see pressure build from several quarters. Anybody can have a bee in their bonnet about a particular subject and come up with 'evidence' - that does not make it fact or worthy of investigation. So far, there seems to be no general acceptance of any substantive evidence in this case. This morning I have asked CWGC what they know about this case and what, if any, moves they have made with the French authorities. I am surprised that people are worrying about this unproven case when the newspapers carried stories over the weekend of a number of Royal Marine Non-World War graves (1929) threatened with eviction from a public cemetery in Greece. A real case of potential dishonour to British servicemen by an ally (again, if the newspaper stories are accurate!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 21 July , 2003 Share Posted 21 July , 2003 I have just heard back from CWGC on this one. They state that the area was fully searched and are highly sceptical that a grave of such magnitude could have been missed by the army. They also state that if the Australian authorities wish to instigate an investigation with the French authorities and remains are found, they will, of course, become involved and carry out their proper duties. However, they also point out that no member country of CWGC carries out searches for remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 22 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2003 Thanks for the update Terry. I guess we just wait and see if anything more happens with this one. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 22 July , 2003 Share Posted 22 July , 2003 I bashed off an email to the Australian Embassy in Paris. They replied that they were aware of the reports and were keeping a close eye on them and developments. They commented that they would expect to be contacted by the french Police if any remains likely to be Australian were discovered . They were expecting the historian concerned to come up with some harder information but repeated the CWGC's comment that such a large concentration of casualties was unlikely not to have been found during the battlefield clearance programme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 22 July , 2003 Share Posted 22 July , 2003 Thanks for the update Terry - it would be interesting if the 'historian' involved in this actually made available the evidence that such a grave is there. Otherwise the whole thing is pure speculation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevebec Posted 22 July , 2003 Share Posted 22 July , 2003 Don't you get the feeling that's its more like some Publisity stunt to get attention for his up coming book or to get money to go on some fishing trip in France to dig for their remains? S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 23 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 23 July , 2003 Steve Do you refer to Robin Corfield who was mentioned in the original article, and whose book on Fromelles came out a few years ago? I was recently informed that he was quite unwell, so I doubt this matter coming up would be a publicity stunt. If anyone is interested, Corfield's book on Fromelles is very detailed and he has gone to much length to delve into the battle from Australian, British & German perspectives. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 23 July , 2003 Share Posted 23 July , 2003 But is there any EVIDENCE in it that supports this claim - that is the key issue here? The people involved have so far failed to provide any evidence; it is all speculation. I also know of Robin Corfield, from friends at the AWM, who all speak highly of him and his work. He is not the source behind this story, so I don't think the claim that it is a publicity stunt for his book holds any water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted 23 July , 2003 Share Posted 23 July , 2003 Hello All, I have been following this story with interest since it first appeared in the Australian press about a week ago. I also remain fairly sceptical of details presented thus far, as I believe it highly unlikely that 250 bodies quoted as ‘discovered’ could remain undetected for so long. Surely evidence of that many bodies would have prompted previous attempts at verification. If by some chance the facts can be proven, it would be unlikely that bodies recovered could be formerly identified on behalf of those Australian families aware that an ancestor was killed on this battlefield. This is not to say that any potential body recovered from this site, irrespective of nationality should not be recognised. In the case of the Australians soldiers posted as ‘missing’ on the European battlefields they are recognised by name on a number of exiting memorials. Regards Geoff S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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