What's happening in this picture?

[Malte Znaniecki]

My question is:

Where might this picture have been taken and ... when ? What does it show?

Malte

Edited 1 August , 2005 by Matt Dixon

[Soren]

Vot picture?

[Malte Znaniecki]

1.8.05

[iain mchenry]

I've always been led to believe (From Rose Coombes' B.E.F.) that the photo was that of an Australian Firing Party at Bertangles at the funeral of Von Richtofen.

Iain

[Alan_J]

Taken at the funeral of Manfred von Richthofen, originally buried I forget where (somewhere in France) but later his body was disinterred and taken back to Germany for reburial by the family.

Sorry can'tbe more detailed, but don't have my books to hand at the moment (I've got a feeling that this picture is in one of Paul Reeds books).

Alan

[Muerrisch]

and there was me thinking the Australians were snapped shooting him down.

[AGWR]

I have never seen this picture with any caption other than the funeral of the Red Baron.

Regards,

AGWR

[Malte Znaniecki]

Thank you all very much for your replies.

Is it really true that this pic shows the funeral of the "Red Baron" ?

It seems to me unbelievable, but if you got right the pic must been taken in March 1918.

best wishes

Malte

[Chris Noble]

Hello Malte.

A couple of more pictures for you;

First one, is British Officers about to lay wreaths at the graveside.

Second one, is the remains of Richthofen's triplane being salved by No.3 Squadron, Australian Flying Corps at Bertangles on 22nd April 1918.

Regards, Chris.

[Chris Noble]

the second;

[Andrew Hesketh]

And, from my travails last week, the plaque by the field in which he came down....

[Malte Znaniecki]

Thank you all,

Thank you for these georgeous pics, so very much to my satisfaction.

A tremendeous help to my search.

wish you all the best

Malte

[TD60]

Looking to a photo in the I Westwell book I confirm the photo is from this ceremony.

If I rember correctly he was burried in german cemetery at Fricourt.

He was replaced at the head of this squadron by a german ace, a certain Herman Goering...

Regards

[Jim Strawbridge]

As an observation, the photograph of the officers and wreaths show a man, of oriental appearance, peering over the hedge. With a spade in the foreground could he have been a member of the Chinese Labour Corps ? I don't know much about the native Labour Corps. Would they have been kept together as a unit or spread out amongst battalions as a source of providing assisted labour to the troops ?

[Malte Znaniecki]

Thank you very much for your answers

Malte

[Adrian Roberts]

It seems to me unbelievable, but if you got right the pic must been taken in March 1918.

Manfred von Richthofen was killed on April 21st, not in March, so the picture was taken a day or so later.

Second one, is the remains of Richthofen's triplane being salved

The only reason its correct to talk of "remains" was that all the fabric was ripped off by souvenir-hunting tommies. Apparently MVR made a perfect landing despite being shot through both lungs. (Though the "perfect landing" bit comes from the Channel 4 documentary, so I stand to be corrected on that).

Adrian

[ian turner]

Adrian

I don't think he made a 'perfect' landing, but appears to have managed to control the plane enough to not nose dive into the ground. I believe his face was smashed on impact with the dashboard of his cockpit, on crash-landing. He had been shot through the side, underarm, and the bullet had severed his aorta. The angle of the bullet wound pointed to it having come from ground fire when his plane was at low altitude.

Ian

[Malte Znaniecki]

Adrian and Ian,

Thanks for your additional informations.

Best

Malte

[Adrian Roberts]

Ian

From my memory of the Channel Four programme, they showed a picture of his body at post-mortem, which I think was in unnecessary bad taste, but from what could be seen his face wasn't severely damaged. Which is not to say he didn't hit the instrument panel at all (or more likely the gun breeches). I doubt if the seat harnesses were particularly efficient.

As far as the path of the bullet is concerned: it came from his right, and slightly behind and below, which is why they deduce it was a British Vickers team that hit him, not the Aussie Lewis team and certainly not Roy Brown.

Adrian

[i'm going on hoiday tomorrow so won't be able to reply to this for a week]

[Mat McLachlan]

On the subject of the rather creepy shot of the Red Baron taken post-mortem, I recall that his make up was applied to his face to cover up some damage and his two front teeth were re-positioned after having been knocked out by contact with one of the plane's machine guns. Not a particularly palatable subject, now that I write it down...

[Mat McLachlan]

On the subject of Malte's photo, look out for motion footage of this firing party during the closing stages of episode three of the 2001 documentary 'Australians at War'. The footage was used to illustrate a very moving quote about the bravery of the Aussie soldiers, implying it depicted AIF troops honouring one of their own. Ironic that it actually shows them honouring one of the enemy, an act that probably conveys an even greater level of respect.

Cheers,

Mat

[andigger]

Where is von Richthofen buried now, and does anything remain of his aircraft?

I know very little about him and his last flight. I thought he has nosed dived to the ground, but apparently was conscience enough to bring the plane in at least some controled fashion.

Andy

[Adrian Roberts]

Andy

Manfred von Richthofen was originally buried at Fricourt but is now buried in the family cemetary at Wiesbaden.

I haven't read that anything is left of Fokker Dr1 427/17 he was flying at the time; much of it was ripped apart by souvenir hunters. The Albatross DV on which he had scored many previous victories was displayed in the Reichmuseum in Berlin and destroyed along with many other historic exhibits (eg the Dornier DoX flying boat) by allied bombing in WW2.

As to MVR's last flight on 21/4/18: whole books have been written about this! Briefly, he broke all his own rules by following Wilfred May's Sopwith Camel down to a low level over enemy territory, at Morlancourt Ridge, Vaux-sur-Somme. He had received a head bullet wound in 1917 and had never truly recovered. One theory is that he sustained damage to the frontal lobe of the brain, which causes people to behave in an obsessive fashion and display poor judgement.

While pursuing May, he was himself being pursued by Canadian Capt Roy Brown in a Camel, and shot at by an Australian Lewis team and a British Vickers team. For whatever reason, he landed, and alledgedly was able to mutter a few words in German before dying as the first allied troops got to him. In the previous posts we debate whether he managed a perfect landing, but certainly he avoided a nose-first crash into the ground. This was highly creditable given that experts believe that his injury would have caused death within thirty seconds.

He sustained some facial damage when he hit his Spandau breeches on landing but his fatal wound was a bullet that entered his back just below his right armpit and exited above his left nipple, shredding his lungs and aorta. In other words it came from his right, slightly below and slightly behind. The current received wisdom given this trajectory is that this bullet was therefore fired by the Vickers team - the name of the gunner is known but I can't remember it. The RAF claimed that Roy Brown shot MVR down, but Brown himself never claimed this and kept quiet about it after the war.

Adrian

[Mat McLachlan]

Regarding any remains of the Baron's Fokker, there are a few scant bits and pieces in the collection of the Australian War Memorial, such as part of a wing spar, a short section of machine gun belt (with a round in place) and Richthofen's flying boots and braces. You can see photos of them by visiting www.awm.gov.au and then clicking 'Search our collections'.

When I was a boy I met a WWI veteran who showed me a small piece of faded cloth with spidery writing on the back claiming it to be a piece of fabric from the Baron's plane. I'm sure there were hundreds of fake Red Baron souveniers circulating after his plane was shot down but, still, it's tempting to believe it was real and I held it in my hand...

Cheers,

Mat

[ian turner]

Again, just from vague memory, but were not some of the aircraft's 'bits and pieces' (prop/gun/plus 'bits') given to the Richthofen family after the war?

Ian