Potter Posted 27 July , 2005 Share Posted 27 July , 2005 Can any pals help with scans of contemporary or trench maps for the front line around Neuve Chapelle in early 1916. I'm trying to locate the Colvin Crater (blown 20 March), Duck's Bill and the Pope's Nose. Many thanks Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7:29am Posted 27 July , 2005 Share Posted 27 July , 2005 there is a recent poem called "popes nose" The Pope's Nose July 1st 1998 by David Hughes "Here's where the difficulty was: exactly here" Where I am standing with my back to the ploughed slopes On which so many thousands died. These silent ghosts Call to me to re-turn, to watch them breast the bags, Clamber 'over the top', break woodenly into Their lumbering runs, come on, and then go down in sheaves Each time the gunner catches them. His concrete nest Is ruined at my feet; and when I bend to scruff My hand across the clay surrounding it, I find The stuff I take for root and bramble catches me. Its barbs are rust-encrusted now, and on their twists The oxides flake to ochre surfaces, as if This German wire itself still holds, and weeps, their blood and re Ducks Bill.. go here http://www.rootsweb.com/~cansk/CanadaInFla...ChapterVII.html although i imagine you already this. There is a map there copy below, only trouble is there is no other references i recognise someone else will have to help you out, but from reading the text the canal is probably Le Bassee canal.. Dave the expert needs to help out on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 27 July , 2005 Share Posted 27 July , 2005 It may be the poem is in reference to the better known Pope's Nose attacked July 1 1916 by Ulster Division near THiepval Wood, then again could be this one, or both... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 27 July , 2005 Share Posted 27 July , 2005 The Duck's Bill is about half a mile north-east of the village centre, and was where the Sherwood Forester's occupied two farms during the Battle of Neuve Chapelle on the 11th March and held them at great cost. There is a sketch in the Sherwood Forester's regimental history which I could scan later. The crater, being from 1916 is not a feature I'm familiar with, and I'm also not aware of a feature known as the Popes Nose round Neuve Chapelle, so again it may be a later feature. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potter Posted 27 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 July , 2005 Thanks Jim and Paul, however the Duck's Bill I'm after is due east of Neuve Chapelle and facing Bois du Biez and therefore well north east of the one on the map of the Canadian attack (this is confusing!). The description from the History of 8th North Staffords is as follows: "On the night of 26th January (1916) we relieved the 8th Glosters in the line from Signpost Lane to the Birdcage. The line ran about 400 yards east of the village of Neuve Chapelle and had figured prominently on many occassions during the War, as part of the scene of both the battle of Neuve Chapelle and of later abortive attacks in the early summer of 1915. The German line ran just west of the Bois de Biez, and a little further north along the foot of Aubers Ridge, a position which afforded them great advantages in the matter of observation. To the rear of our lines the ground was of a flatness typical of Flanders. The landmarks in the immediate vacinity were the Rue de Tilleloy, the Pont Logny road and the Rue de Bacquerot, all of which run parallel to the trenches and joined the La Bassee - Estaires road, the ruins of Neuve Chapelle, Pont Logy and Rouge Criox, and several dilapidated farms. In the distance , to the north west, could be seen the spire of Laventie church. The trenches were in good condition, having been substantially built. They were fairly dry and laid with trench boards. There were a good number of dug-outs but not sufficient for requirements. Battalion headquarters were situated in dug-outs built round some ruined farm buildings on the Pont Logy road, popularly known as Ebenezer Farm. A feature of the sector was an extraordinary salient known as the Duck's Bill. Mining operations on both sides were in progress at two points of this sector, one a little to the north of South Tilleloy Street and the firing line, and the other at the Duck's Bill. The latter was reported to be undermined by the enemy, and was held by a party of Bombers, whose feelings, on the prospect of finding themselves flying skywards at any moment, may be better imagined than described." Many thanks for further assistance. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 27 July , 2005 Share Posted 27 July , 2005 The crater, being from 1916 is not a feature I'm familiar with, and I'm also not aware of a feature known as the Popes Nose round Neuve Chapelle, so again it may be a later feature.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> "Popes Nose" is about 1km due south of the centre of Neuve Chappelle and faces the southernmost parts of the Bois du Biez. "Ducks Bill" actually is on the map mentioned by Alan in the other thread (and is basically where he described it), but is not named - it's in what's shown as No-man's land at the northernmost part of the Brit. front-line on the particular snippet. Later maps name it and show the trenches heading out into no-man's land and a cluster of mine craters in front (1917 and 1918 maps). When I get round to it, I'll scan and post a couple of extracts to show the locations. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potter Posted 27 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 July , 2005 Alan and Dave, Many thanks for your responses. This is an amazing website for WW1 buffs. Alan, thanks for directing me to your maps. Dave, if you have the time to post any further information, I'd be very grateful. Best wishes Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brindlerp Posted 27 July , 2005 Share Posted 27 July , 2005 The Battle Of Neuve Chapelle - French Flanders by Geoff Bridger - ISBN 0 85052 648 5 covers details of the battle in 1915. The book contains the attached Map 12, page 111 showing 8 Duck's Bill 13 Bois du Biez page 40 has an aerial photo of the Duck's Bill (IWM Air 38/889) regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brindlerp Posted 27 July , 2005 Share Posted 27 July , 2005 The book contains the attached The Battle Of Neuve Chapelle - French Flanders by Geoff Bridger - ISBN 0 85052 648 5 covers details of the battle in 1915. The book contains the attached page 40 has an aerial photo of the Duck's Bill (IWM Air 38/889) regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 28 July , 2005 Share Posted 28 July , 2005 This image was posted by Laurent in this thread. Figured it might be of interest. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 28 July , 2005 Share Posted 28 July , 2005 Andy, Looking at the map in the thread by Laurent, I think this must be another Ducks Bill. The map shows Givenchy (with the Ducks Bill crater) - about 5 miles north of Neuve Chapelle. Ducks Bill at NC wasn't a crater IIRC. Alan Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potter Posted 28 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2005 Alan, you're right. Laurent's photo does not show the right Duck's Bill. It's the one on Richard's map at Neuve Chapelle. Thanks to everyone. Why Duck's Bill? Was it the shape? Can anyone help with Colvin Crater which would be north of Neuve Chapelle, as the line headed towards Aubers? Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 28 July , 2005 Share Posted 28 July , 2005 Why Duck's Bill? Was it the shape? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not only why Duck's Bill, but how could you have two Duck's Bills???? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 28 July , 2005 Share Posted 28 July , 2005 Why Duck's Bill? Was it the shape?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Possibly, as you'll see in a (later dated) map that I'll post shortly. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 28 July , 2005 Share Posted 28 July , 2005 Not only why Duck's Bill, but how could you have two Duck's Bills???? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ...2 ducks! Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 28 July , 2005 Share Posted 28 July , 2005 Can anyone help with Colvin Crater which would be north of Neuve Chapelle, as the line headed towards Aubers?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry, I forgot about the crater. It'll be one of this cluster (see "Colvin Trench"?) Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 28 July , 2005 Share Posted 28 July , 2005 "Ducks Bill" (top of scan). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potter Posted 28 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2005 Dave, On the modern IGN, I suspect it's a pond on the road from Mauquissart to Rue des Lurons about 1 km NE of the centre of NC. The orders for the raid which immediately followed the blowing of the 5 mines there locates it as at the German salient M30.A. The limits of the trenches raided were 41 to 24. and communication trench 42 -43. The reference point for the British side was that they advanced with Winchester Road on their right. The other reference I have is that the raid was on German trenches opposite Bird Cage, near Winchester Road. Doe this make any sense? Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potter Posted 28 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 July , 2005 Dave, Our posts crossed. You've confirmed Colvin and Duck's Bill for me. Your map shows 12 craters at Colvin. 5 were blown on 20 March 1916 and the rest probably before then. The IGN shows woodland where the line of craters is, so it will be interesting to check out what is still there. Colvin itself, the largest and most northerly, is a pond. Many, many thanks to you and other pals who contributed, though we never did resolve why there are 2 Duck Bills in this sector and where the name comes from. Best wishes Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 28 July , 2005 Share Posted 28 July , 2005 though we never did resolve why there are 2 Duck Bills in this sector <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There isn't. They're in different sectors. Like the other popular name for a "mini-salient" ("Pope's Nose" - quite a few of these too!), they're not unique to a certain place.. Anyway, as a parting shot, here's the area from a July 1916 map... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 28 July , 2005 Share Posted 28 July , 2005 Colvin itself, the largest and most northerly, is a pond. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Looking at Dave's 1916 map, there is a pond ("pool") marked on Colvin trench. I wonder if this is the pond on the modern map, rather than one of the craters? I don't know how well you can line the two up to try and see. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potter Posted 29 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 29 July , 2005 Alan, Well spotted. However, assuming the modern road follows the 1914 one, it isn't Colvin Pond, it's the most northerly of the craters on Dave's first map. The woodland in the area follows the line of the other craters. Comparing Dave's two maps: Colvin Pond is on the earlier one (though not named), so it's not one of the craters; the British line on the later map doesn't seem to have changed except for a sap which seems to incoporate craters 1,2, 3 and maybe 4. This reaches a German sap. The German line has adjusted opposite this sap. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 29 July , 2005 Share Posted 29 July , 2005 Looking at Dave's 1916 map, there is a pond ("pool") marked on Colvin trench. I wonder if this is the pond on the modern map, rather than one of the craters? I don't know how well you can line the two up to try and see. Alan <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I know it's not all that clear, but it actually says "Colvin Post" and is a trench position!!! Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_J Posted 29 July , 2005 Share Posted 29 July , 2005 I know it's not all that clear, but it actually says "Colvin Post" and is a trench position!!! Dave. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Whoops!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 6 August , 2005 Share Posted 6 August , 2005 I'm trying to locate the Colvin Crater (blown 20 March), Duck's Bill <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Phil. Here's another trenchmap extract showing both the area of Colvin trench and the Duck's Bill. The map is allegedly dated March 1916. (Sorry it's in B&W - it's just a copy this time!) Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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