Q Ships

[eagleeye]

Hi,

When did they start using Q ships? Why were they used? Does anyone know anything about them, who were they manned by?, were they merchant seaman or RN?

Any information would be appreciated or any clues as to where I could find out more

Thanks

Rod

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Rod

This will give you a starter.

Dave

http://www.naval-history.net/WW1NavyBritishQships.htm

[Guest wrinklyone]

I have a pic of an elderly 'HMS Windsor' passing through the Kiel Canal in July 1932. It appears to bear the ident Q42 (indistinct). Is that possible, and/or is anything known of this ship, please.

[eagleeye]

Rod

This will give you a starter.

Dave

http://www.naval-history.net/WW1NavyBritishQships.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dave

Thats a brillaint site, just the job

Thanks

Rod

[ATM]

Here is a list of Q ships by name.

http://www.gwpda.org/naval/rnqships.htm

[Dolphin]

Rod

It might be worth scouring second hand bookshops for a copy of the 1930s book My Mystery Ships by Vice-Admiral Gordon Campbell. No ISBN, I'm afraid.

Regards

Gareth

[Guest wrinklyone]

I have a pic of an elderly 'HMS Windsor' passing through the Kiel Canal in July 1932. It appears to bear the ident Q42 (indistinct). Is that possible, and/or is anything known of this ship, please.

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So it obviously wasn't a Q ship, in which case the number on the side can only be O42. I would still appreciate any info!

[Michael Lowrey]

Looking through Lenton & Colledge's Warships of World War II, it would appear the pennant number for Windsor was D42. She was a W class destroyer launched in June 1918.

Best wishes,

Michael

[historydavid]

Rod,

Q ships were normally manned by a mixture of RN and merchant seamen.

The master and crew were retained to handle the ship in the normal way but a RN gun crew was added together with a RN officer who had overall command of the vessel.

Best wishes

David

[Petroc]

might be of use; try 'Q-Ships' by Carson I.A.Ritchie (Dalton Ltd, 1985), 'A North Sea Diary' by Commander S.King-Hall (Newnes and Co), and possibly the naval historical branch of the MOD

[Adrian Roberts]

Rod

It might be worth scouring second hand bookshops for a copy of the 1930s book My Mystery Ships by Vice-Admiral Gordon Campbell. No ISBN, I'm afraid.

Regards

Gareth

As it happens this is the very book I’m reading at present; I’m about ¾ of the way through it. I found my copy in a second-hand shop in Bath; it has a hand-written inscription with the date 1928 in the front.

It’s a personal history of Campbell’s experiences so it doesn’t, for instance, say precisely how and when the tactic started. It probably wouldn’t appeal to the general reader as the accounts of action only cover a few pages. This of course reflects the fact that Q-ships spent months patrolling without incident and then there would be a vicious piece of action lasting maybe half an hour. But Campbell fills the rest of the book not only with detail of training, tactics etc but with lots of interesting anecdotes, and I’m sure any enthusiast i.e. anyone likely to be reading this part of the forum would find it fascinating.

As to the manning situation:

Q ships were normally manned by a mixture of RN and merchant seamen.

The master and crew were retained to handle the ship in the normal way but a RN gun crew was added together with a RN officer who had overall command of the vessel.

Best wishes

David

According to Campbell (and this may not have been applicable to all Q-ships so David may be right as well): “I took over the ship from the [merchant seaman] Master, much to his disgust….but he sportingly volunteered to remain and serve under me, but I declined the offer as I felt it would be uncomfortable for both of us. Before taking over I asked him to discharge all his crew….”

So the crew were not the original crew, but apart from Campbell they were nearly all merchant seaman, often hand-picked, and hastily drafted into the RNR if they were not already in it. Some are listed as RFR, which I have learned from this forum means Royal Fleet Reserve, but I’m not sure of the difference between this and the RNR. It seems that even the gunners were from these men, hastily but effectively trained.

Campbell goes into a lot of detail about how they disguised the ship as an ordinary merchantman, and how they changed its appearance every night by, e.g. altering the positions of stanchions and ventilators, painting the funnel etc. The disguise had to be perfect as the U-boats would often inspect them from very close range before surfacing.

Initially, the tactics depended on the U-boat surfacing and attacking with gunfire: early in the war they usually dealt with merchant vessels in this way, saving expensive torpedoes for warships. But by 1917, the U-boats were using torpedoes on merchant vessels, so Campbell had to resort to deliberately getting his ship torpedoed, and the crew had to wait on a sinking ship, without moving a muscle in case the U-boat skipper noticed, until such time as the U-boat surfaced and was in a place where the Q-ships guns could bear. Hardly surprising that Campbell was awarded a Victoria Cross and DSO and two bars - was he the most highly decorated naval officer of the war? He was offered a second VC, but insisted that a member of his crew should get it.

Incidentally, they were only officially called Q-ships for a few months of the war. Initially they were called decoy vessels; later Mystery Ships.

I attach a diagram of the hidden armament and disguises of SS Loderer, aka HMS Farnborough, aka HMS Q5.

Adrian

[dmilford]

It might be worth scouring second hand bookshops for a copy of the 1930s book My Mystery Ships by Vice-Admiral Gordon Campbell.  No ISBN, I'm afraid.

Periscope Publishing (www.periscopepublishing.com) have recently re-printed this book along with a couple more on Q-ships.

[Myrtle]

As to the manning situation:

According to Campbell (and this may not have been applicable to all Q-ships so David may be right as well): “I took over the ship from the [merchant seaman] Master, much to his disgust….but he sportingly volunteered to remain and serve under me, but I declined the offer as I felt it would be uncomfortable for both of us. Before taking over I asked him to discharge all his crew….”

So the crew were not the original crew, but apart from Campbell they were nearly all merchant seaman, often hand-picked, and hastily drafted into the RNR if they were not already in it. Some are listed as RFR, which I have learned from this forum means Royal Fleet Reserve, but I’m not sure of the difference between this and the RNR. It seems that even the gunners were from these men, hastily but effectively trained.

Adrian

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Adrian

I placed a question on the forum regarding Q Ships (25th March). Is the description above in reference to the time that Campbell took over the Farnborough (Loderer) ? I am wondering as a friend's grandfather was the Master of the Loderer/Farnborough from 6th October 1915 until 31st December 1915.

Myrtle

[Adrian Roberts]

Adrian

I placed a question on the forum regarding Q Ships (25th March). Is the description above in reference to the time that Campbell took over the Farnborough (Loderer) ? I am wondering as a friend's grandfather was the Master of the Loderer/Farnborough from 6th October 1915 until 31st December 1915.

Myrtle

Myrtle

Yes, this was when Campbell took over the Loderer; he doesn't give an exact date but it must have been about Oct 1915. I don't think the Master can ever have had a chance to sail in her; 31st December must have been a nominal date to officially terminate his command - Campbell had ousted him long before that!

Small world! Do you know the Master's name?

The original question was about when Q-ships first started. In fact, Campbell does give a brief history. The first sinking of a U-boat by a decoy vessel [they weren't called Q-ships then] was on 24th July 1915, by the 400-ton steamer Prince Charles. Before that, success had been achieved by a the trawler Taranaki acting as a decoy and actually towing a submarine [C24] under water - when a U-boat surfaced the tow was slipped and the submarine sank the U-boat.

Adrian

[historydavid]

The first decoy vessel was the SS Victoria used in an unsuccessful attempt to lure U-boats in the Channel in November 1914.

Best Wishes

David

[Guest]

There is a good account of Q ship operations in Robert K Massie's Castles of Steel, an excellent naval history of the war which is currently in the bookshops.

My only criticism of the book is the poor maps.

[Myrtle]

Adrian

Thank you for clarification. The Master's name was William Ruthen. He was the older brother of Charles Tamlin Ruthen, architect and engineer who became Sir Charles Ruthen, Ministery of Housing in George Lloyd's government.

Myrtle

[Myrtle]

Found this on another site Click on Seaman William Williams VC (not to be confused with the VC of the same name at Gallipoli).Q Ships VC

[ATM]

Also have a shufty at the Baralong incident. A very interesting episode for the Q ship.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclope...ng_Incident.htm

[IanR]

Hello

I wonder if any the books mentioned on Q-ships refer to HMS Q-36. There is a young man buried in a cemetery in Jersey who apparently was on Q36. He was washed up in a life boat on the 13th of April 1917; however, according to the - limited - information I have Q36 was not sunk until November that year. So how did he end up dead in a lifeboat in Jersey? The CWGC have him dying on the 30th March 1917.

One thought I had was that I understand that the crews of Q-Ships sometimes faked abandoning ship. Could this young man have gotten into a boat and then got seperated?

Any help or thoughts would be welcomed

Ian

[Lörscher]

Hello!

Q.36 was S/S "Puma" of 1459 grt which was torpedoed on 30.03.17 by an unknown submarine 30 miles SW Lizard Hd., than hit by 10 of about 30 shot with the u-boats deck gun. There there 1 dead and 8 drowned on "Puma", which was saved by HMS "Rovenska".

Info from ADM 131 / 85

Oliver

[Michael Lowrey]

Interesting indeed. Perhaps 2% of the ships sunk or damaged by U-boat attack have never been attributed to a specific submarine, including the case of Q.36 on March 30, 1917. With the information provided by Oliver it shouldn't be that difficult to figure which U-boat was involved. While a location SW of Lizard Point would be rather common, there were ultimately a limited number of German submarines at sea on this day. I have a copy of the war diaries of most of them and will see if I can find a match.

Best wishes,

Michael

[Myrtle]

Hello

I wonder if any the books mentioned on Q-ships refer to HMS Q-36. There is a young man buried in a cemetery in Jersey who apparently was on Q36. He was washed up in a life boat on the 13th of April 1917; however, according to the - limited - information I have Q36 was not sunk until November that year. So how did he end up dead in a lifeboat in Jersey? The CWGC have him dying on the 30th March 1917.

One thought I had was that I understand that the crews of Q-Ships sometimes faked abandoning ship. Could this young man have gotten into a boat and then got seperated?

Any help or thoughts would be welcomed

Ian

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Ian

What was the name of the member of the Q36 crew who is buried in the Jersey Cemetery ?

Myrtle

[IanR]

Hi

The seaman buried in Jersey is a George Cawley, aged 19, of London.

The fact that Q36 was not sunk, but there were casualties makes sense. Is there any accounts of this action? Lorscher, what does ADM 131/85 refer to?

Ian

[Lörscher]

Hi,

ADM 131 / 85 is "Special service vessels and "Q" ships: engagements with enemy submarines; first idea of "Q" ships and fitting out" (ADM 131 being Plymouth station only).

I only made some notes while looking at that file, but as far as I can remember it was an telegram (from x to x) reporting that incident, but I'm not sure now, I'm sorry.

I can add that the incident occured at 20.05h that day and that HMS "Achates" later joined "Rovenska" to escort Q.36

Oliver