gporta Posted 22 July , 2005 Share Posted 22 July , 2005 I have a few questions about the 4th Bedfordshires: A) In which major battles of the Great War they took part (in other words, which were their 1914-18 battle honours)? Since the 4th Bedfordshires, as an Special Reserve Battalion, belonged to te regular stablishment of the regiment, I suppose that, once the war diary is finished in 1919 , the battalion returned to the regimental depot to reassume its role as reserve battalion... or were the regular battalions of the Bedfordshires re-arranged in some way? Can anybody shed some light on this ? C) Norman Holding, in his guide "The location of British Army" records gives no bibliography relating to this battalion, but then the bookdates from 1987... so maybe something new has been published since? information is welcome. Mr. Holding mentions a book by Major general F. Maurice "The 16th foot - the history of the Beds and Herts. Regt." , published in 1931, but then I don't know if it contains information on the 4th Bedfords). Thanks in advance, Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 22 July , 2005 Share Posted 22 July , 2005 Gale, I've no idea what happend regarding the Bedfords, but from the Regimental Journals of the Northumberland Fusiliers very interesting things began to happen to Battalions which generally aren't recorded Both the 1st & 2nd Bn's,N.F. were by 1919 in France and the 3rd(Res)Bn,N.F. was still at it's camp in East Boldon, Durham. The 1st Bn moved from France to Cologne,Germany on 21/3/1919. On the 25th March 1919 a new 2nd Bn.N.F.(nucleus) was formed of 6 officers and 30 other ranks from the Depot of the N.F., although the 2nd Bn was still at Wargnies le Grand. The 3rd(Res)Bn,N.F. moved from East Boldon to No.13 Camp, Durrington on 3/3/1919. 1st Bn,N.F. start to reduce to Cadre April 1919. 2nd Bn,N.F.(nucleus) moves to Catterick 9/4/1919. 1st Bn,N.F. move back to France with 2nd Bn,N.F. at Wargnies. 2nd Bn,N.F. return to U.K. and move to Catterick 10/6/1919. 2nd Bn,N.F.(nucleus) absorbs the old 2nd Bn,N.F. and becomes the 2nd Bn,N.F. 1st Bn,N.F. arrives back in U.K. 26/6/1919. Moves to No.13 Camp, Durrington and absorbs 3rd(Res)Bn,N.F. 12/7/1919. Remaining Cadre of 3rd(Res)Bn,N.F. "REVERTED TO PEACETIME CONDITIONS". Sorry it's so long winded, but I imagine a similar story would be unfolding throughout the U.K. in 1919, and thought this might be of interest to you. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 23 July , 2005 Share Posted 23 July , 2005 4th Bedfords were Extra Reserve - the old militia, used to provide reinforcements for the regular Bns. About half a dozen of these went to France - 7th Royal Fusliers, I know, and (I think) a Staffordshire Battalion. Anyway, the 4th bedfords joined 190 Bde, 63rd (RN) Division, in late July '16, and spent the rest of the War with that formation. They would, I assume, have participated in pretty well all of that Division's battles (which were numerous) - 1916: Ancre (13-15 Nov); 1917: German retreat, 2nd Scarpe and Arleux (Arras, 23-29 April), 2nd Passchendaele (26 Oct - 5 Nov), Welch Ridge (Cambrai, 30/31 Dec); 1918, German Offensive (March - April), Albert (21-23 Aug), Drocort-Queant Line (2/3 Sept), Hindenburg Line (Sep-Oct) and (finally) the Passage of the Grande Honelle on 7 Nov. I don't know a history, I'm afraid, but Jerrold's Royal Naval Division is pretty detailed and the Bedfords get a lot of mentions in the index. As for post-war, I believe that the Special reserve and Extra Reserve Bns were either disbanded or placed in 'suspended animation' (I love that phrase!) in the reforms of the 1920's; I'm sure they didn't exist in the second war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gporta Posted 25 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2005 Graham, Steven... Thanks for the help and info re 4th Bedfords & Reserve Battalions. My first idea had been that the 4th Bedfordshires, as a regular unit, went back to England and to its old role as training/recruiting Reserve Bn., and yet, some men I've seen in the medal rolls who served in the Bedfordshire regiment, were later serving in the Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regt. so it seems that there was a regiment amalgamation no later than 1920, humm... Thanks for the suggestions about the 63rd Division... Any book/story about it must no doubt have reference about the 4th Bedfordshires: I'll check books on it. Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 25 July , 2005 Share Posted 25 July , 2005 History of the 4th Battalion is provided in "The Wasp" (the regimental magazine) Issues September 1927-December 1928. Copies are available at Bedford Central Library. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gporta Posted 25 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2005 History of the 4th Battalion is provided in "The Wasp" (the regimental magazine) Issues September 1927-December 1928. Copies are available at Bedford Central Library. John. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks, John. I'll get in touch with them and see if I can get a copy. Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 25 July , 2005 Share Posted 25 July , 2005 Gloria - the Beds & Herts title wasn't an amalgamation - in 1919 the Befordshire regiment became the Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire regiment in honour of the number of men from the latter county who had served in the regiment. This is similar to the Oxfordshire Light Infantry becoming the Ox and Bucks in around 1901. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gporta Posted 25 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2005 Gloria - the Beds & Herts title wasn't an amalgamation - in 1919 the Befordshire regiment became the Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire regiment in honour of the number of men from the latter county who had served in the regiment. This is similar to the Oxfordshire Light Infantry becoming the Ox and Bucks in around 1901. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi Steven, Thanks for the info. I probably was mislead by the notes on the Hertfordshire Regiment in E.A. James' "British regiments 14-18": of its four Bns., the 2/1st and 4/st Battalions were both disbanded in 1917 , and the 3/1st was combined in 1917 with the 5th (Reserve) Bn. Bedfordshire Regt. These 3 Bns. never left the UK. The 1/1st Bn. as with the 116th Bde, 39th Div. (France) and in may 1918 it absorbed 30 officers and 650 ORs from the 6th Bedfordshires (By the end of the war, the 1/1st Herts were in the 112th Bde., 37th Div.) With just one Battalion left after the end of the war, I wonder if the Hertforshires continued as a Regiment, or were re-arranged in some way... Huh, wandering off-topic Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 26 July , 2005 Share Posted 26 July , 2005 Stayed as a territorial unit, affailiated to the Beds & Herts. I think they ended up as artillery, but not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD60 Posted 26 July , 2005 Share Posted 26 July , 2005 Stayed as a territorial unit, affailiated to the Beds & Herts. I think they ended up as artillery, but not sure. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hello The hertfordshire YEOMANRY was an artillery unit in WW2: Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD60 Posted 26 July , 2005 Share Posted 26 July , 2005 Here a grave of Bed and herts dated 1918: this regiment was created in 1919 I think. A carving mistake ? Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 26 July , 2005 Share Posted 26 July , 2005 Here a grave of Bed and herts dated 1918: this regiment was created in 1919 I think. A carving mistake ? Regards <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Spooky ... you just inadvertantly found a relative I didnt know about TD60!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Didnt know about him but know Robert & Ann (his parents). Apart from the extra work mate, I thank you!!!! CWGC list his Regt as "Bedfordshire" only (but you just know Im off to get his MIC!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gporta Posted 26 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 26 July , 2005 Spooky ... you just inadvertantly found a relative I didnt know about TD60!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is truly serendipity! (I'm really curious now about the Bedfords and Bedfords&Herts connection) Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 26 July , 2005 Share Posted 26 July , 2005 Hello The hertfordshire YEOMANRY was an artillery unit in WW2: Regards <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I sit corrected! Wonder what did happen to the Herts Regt, then? Someone out there must know. Interesting about the Beds & Herts headstone - I'd say it's the wrong style. I've seen that before - I once saw a King's regt grave on the Somme (near mametz, can't remember location) with the post-1922 badge ("King's2 in gothic script) for a 1916 casualty. I suppose mistakes are made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD60 Posted 26 July , 2005 Share Posted 26 July , 2005 Spooky ... you just inadvertantly found a relative I didnt know about TD60!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Didnt know about him but know Robert & Ann (his parents). Apart from the extra work mate, I thank you!!!! CWGC list his Regt as "Bedfordshire" only (but you just know Im off to get his MIC!) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Super ! Keep me inform about the MIC details. Kind regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gporta Posted 9 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Hi all, I received copies from the "Wasp" magazine. There is a mention of a meeting of the regimental association and the 4th battalion is mentioned, so it seems that after the war it remained in regular stablishment. I should thank John for the suggestion of the articles in the "Wasp magazine". I expected it to just be a narrative taken from the Battalion's War Diaries, but there is more to it. It is evident that the author must have had the chance to talk with people involved in the actions, and rankers which are not mentioned in the War Diary, get mention here for diverse feats. I'll give a few examples of men mentioned, which happened during the German Spring offensive of 1918. During 22nd-23rd march, transport Sergeant William George Marks is mentioned for carrying his column sucessfully to the front, under heavy enemy shelling. In the morning of the 23rd 14124 Private (Acting Corporal) William Batchelor is mentioned for keeping the enemy at bay for a while with a Lewis Gun, managing to carry it away when he finally had to retire. In march 26th 12123 Private Paul Le Gros (Acting Lance Corporal) who kept a covering fire with his Lewis gun, thus protecting a group of men who were being sniped and bombed by the enemy, and 30983 Private William Edward Auburn, company stretcher bearer, who "worked unceasingly" in recovering and bandaging wounded men all through the day. The War Diary just mentions them receiving a Military Medal, while the article explains why they got it. The articles on the story of the 4th Battalion during the war are further illustrated with some pictures and maps. The maps are mostly taken from Jerrold's "The Royal Naval Division", so it is evident that Steven Broomfield hit the nail in the head when he suggested that book, as, from the excerpts and maps appearing in the articles in the "Wasp" magazine, it is evident that the book is an excellent source for information (... and another one to the "Want List", sigh!). Thanks to everyone for the help, Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 10 August , 2005 Share Posted 10 August , 2005 Glad to have been of help Gloria. The articles in the Wasp are quite comprehensive and there are similar records for most (not all) battalions of the Bedford's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gporta Posted 10 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2005 ... So it seems that, when trying to place the whereabouts of a unit, etc... we should not only look for a War Diary, Battalion Orders, etc, but check as well if the regiment keeps (or kept) a magazine! Certainly "The Wasp", for what I have seen, is very thorough in the information it gives. I don't know if all regimental magazines will be the same, but it is certainly a good option to keep in mind. Thanks (again) Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 10 August , 2005 Share Posted 10 August , 2005 Gloria, Have just noted your recent success in obtaining "The Wasp" to help you with your Bedfords research. I guess I'm one of the lucky one's in that I almost have a full run of "St. Georges Gazette" the Regimental magazine of the Northumberland Fusiliers from 1884 to 1968 and it's offspring "The Fusilier" from 1968 up to the present day. It would appear from the SGG, that regiments did actually exchange their magazines with one another, and it the lead sheet of the SGG it states;-"We beg to acknowledge, with many thanks, the receipt of copies of the following papers";- "The Sapper" - Royal Egineers "Blighty" - ??? "The London Scottish Regimental Gazette" "Globe & Laurel" - Royal Marine Light Infantry "ASC Magazine" "The Oak Tree" - Cheshire Regt? "The Sprig of Shillelagh" - Royal Irish Regiment? "Hampshire Regimental Journal" "The 79th News" - Q.O.Cameron Highlanders. It makes you wonder how many other regiments still produced wartime journals and if they were ever all documented in "Whites Bibliography" of regimetal histories and journals, or if researchers are aware of them? Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gporta Posted 11 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 11 August , 2005 It makes you wonder how many other regiments still produced wartime journals and if they were ever all documented in "Whites Bibliography" of regimetal histories and journals, or if researchers are aware of them? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Graham, With your permission, I'd like to drop an idea: I've been thinking that I could start a thread titled "Regimental Magazines", where I would mention "The Wasp" (mentioning the location of copies as you gave them to me) and then pasting the list of regimental magazines that you have just given. The idea is that the everyone could drop titles of regimental magazines, where they can be found, etc... so the thread might become a (basic) database for those interested. Again, if you give your permission to quote you, etc... Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 11 August , 2005 Share Posted 11 August , 2005 Gloria, No problem, although I won't be able to answer queries from this Saturday, as we're off on a weeks holiday. I can also add;- "3rd Volunter Battalion, Northumberland Fusiliers Magazine". "6th Battalion, Northumberland Fusiliers Magazine". "The Growler" - 16th Bn,N.F. magazine. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 11 August , 2005 Share Posted 11 August , 2005 Gloria, Oops, it was "Raster Scanning"(John), who actually pointed you in the direction of "The Wasp" magazine and not me. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gporta Posted 11 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 11 August , 2005 Gloria, Oops, it was "Raster Scanning"(John), who actually pointed you in the direction of "The Wasp" magazine and not me. Graham. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's my "oops" as well. I'm similarly going out for a couple of days. So I will prepare the posting when I'm back.... and Thanks again Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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