Tanks

[Guest PROCONSUL]

Before the formation of the Royal Armoured Corps, and at the time of the introduction of the tank, the first tank crews must have been recruited from elsewhere n the army.

I would imagine, as today, that there was a Tank Commander, a Gunner/Loader, and a driver. I also recall reading somwhere that the early tanks had a largish crew including multiple gunners and mechanics for the left hand and for the right hand engine/tracks.

My question is what was the actual crew composition, where did the first tank crews come from and how were they badged?

I reckon that the drivers and mechanics would have been Army Service Corp!!! Tank commanders would probably have been junior infantry officers; infantry soldiers would probably have manned the machine guns and artillery men the heavier guns.

Can anyone give an authorative answer on the Drivers? If I can show that the first persons to drive tanks in combat were badged Army Service Corps I stand, at the next Cambrai dinner on the 22 Nov, to win a substantive bet with a modern day tanker who has been impertinent enough to disparage the ASC as non combatants.

Tim of the Antipodes

[Simon Jones]

Tim

You are correct. The first drivers were part of the Army Service Corps, from memory I think it was 711 Company. There is a report by the commander of this unit in the National Archives which I saw many years ago in which he alleges that many of the tanks in the first attack failed to get into action because the MGC crews sabotaged them. He also describes the MGC as 'over-officered and under-disciplined' or words to that effect.

Unfortunately for your bet I cannot find the notes that I made at the time...

Regards

Simon

[Robert Dunlop]

Check out Mitchell's account of his training and experience in the Tank Corps. He was a driver. I don't have the book with me at present (travelling) so cannot offer you any quotes.

Robert

[bmac]

Trevor Pidgeon's book 'The Tanks at Flers' gives a nearly complete complement of all of the tanks involved on 15th September.

All bar seven of the officers were MGC. Crew sizes were mainly 8 but some Female tanks had 9. One crew member was 711th MT Coy, ASC (the driver), though all crew members were trained to drive, fire the guns and in some basic engine maintenance. A number of the men were recruited from the Motor Machine Gun Service (for which there was not a lot of call on the Western Front in 1916!).

[delta]

Mike Young lists the names in his history of the ASC - I will post them tomorrow with other details I have located

[Guest PROCONSUL]

Mike Young lists the names in his history of the ASC - I will post them tomorrow with other details I have located

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Stephen,

Standing by. Tim

[bernardmcilwaine]

i only know that they were called the heavy machine gun corps to disguise what the crews were for,i think the bulk of them came from the ASC,MGC and RE,bernard

[delta]

Colonel Mike Young states that the majority of the ASC men, who drove tanks at Flers-Courcelette, were trained to drive Holt tractors within 711 (MT) ASC based in Avonmouth; some were driving caterpillar tractors in France and volunteered to return to the UK. Four officers, a Mechanist Sergeant Major (MSM) and 12 men were initially posted to Elveden in early June to train with the tanks. Two companies of tanks, supported by the ASC workshop (minus) deployed to France on 3 Sep. Although the workshop consisted on 7 officers, 150 artificers and 50 ORs for general duties, the OC only took three officers, the MSM and 23 ORs to France. The Workshop Commander - Lt (Temp Maj) H Knothe MC - was awarded the DSO for his work. I am still trying to identify the name of the MSM who, with 6 men, carried a complete track to High wood to recover a tank

The names of those who acted as drivers (with decorations for action in 1916)are shown below with other info I have gleaned froma wide range of sources.

C Company HB MGC (OC Maj Allen Holford-Walker A&SH (MC).

No 1 Sect

C1 –Champagne. Pte H Brotherwood; killed and buried at II. F. 27 Pozieres British Cemetery, Ovillers-La Boisselle).

C2 – Cognac. Pte H Ledger; also served at St Julien (Sep 1917) where he was awarded a MM for trying to recover his tank

C3- Chartreuse. Pte A Boult

C4 – Chablis. Pte DD Cronin; appears to have served at Arras, Passchendaele and Cambrai where (as a LCpl) he was awarded MM

C5 - Crème de Menthe (Male). Sgt C B Shepherd (DCM)

C6 – Cordon Rouge. Pte J Barton

C14 (female). Pte S L Heath

D Company HB MGC (OC – Maj R Summers (DSO)

No 1 Section

D1 (Male) Pte AS Wateredge; awarded MM for actions at Bullecourt (May 1917)

D2 Cpl T A Keats

D3 Pte G A Simpson

D4 Pte WJ Shortland

D5 – Dolphin. Pte G H Thomas (MM); was wounded

D6 Sgt H L Thacker (MM); suffered shock - was commissioned and later died in Salonika (Mikra 15 Apr 1917)

No 2 Section

D7 Pte Barnes

D8 Pte BJ Young (MM); temporarily blinded but recovered and drove his vehicle back to the rally point

D9 Dolly LCpl G A Saunders; was wounded

D10 (female). LCpl E Phillips; was wounded

D11 - Die Hard. Pte F Still (MM)

D12 (male). Cpl RR Murray

No 3 Section

D13 Delilah. LCpl A P Blomfield; is listed by MH Young as being in the Coy Reserve but driving D13

D14 LCpl LW Upton; died of wounds Buried at III. E. 2. AIF Burial Ground, Flers

D15 Pte A Rowe; suffered shock

D16 -Dracula Pte S Workman

D17 – Dinnaken Pte C A Wescomb

D18 Pte F Burrows

D19 Pte T Hinds

No 4 Section

D20 Pte A J Bowerman; suffered shock

D21 (male) Pte H E Wilson

D22 (female) Pte E C Howes

D23 (female) Pte P W Rossiter

D24 Pte FG Wood; was wounded

D25 Pte J Maude

In addition, Mike Young records that one of the volunteer drivers (Pte PH Johnson) was travelling to Elveden by train when he met Col Swinton, who aranegd that he be commissioned. Johnson commanded one of the tanks at Flers-Courcellette although I have been unable to identify which. He subsequently was awarded the DSO whilst serving as the Commander of D Bn’s workshop in 1917 and later awarded the MBE and Legion d’Honneur. On retirment , as a Lt Col, he set up the firm Roadless Traction which specialised in off-road machines. Two other ASC officers of 711 Company (Lts Carden and Lloyd) set up a firm which produced the vehicle which evolved into a Bren carrier.

If any one knows any more, (or has contrary info) please let me know

[Guest PROCONSUL]

Fantastic Stephen,

Many thanks indeed

Tim

[Simon Jones]

I have now found the notes I made from the 711 Company ASC report, which is in the National Archives WO95/116. I have no note of an author but I assume it is Lt Knothe mentioned by Delta. He is referring to the first tank attacks.

"Historical Account of 711 MT Company ASC Attached to 'Tanks' in France

… Officially no one but an A.S.C. man was allowed to drive and the failure of the M.G.C. commanders to enforce this rule resulted in breakdowns and caused the A.S.C. to be adversely, and unfairly, criticised.

The Tanks were not a great success.

The M.G.C. as a unit were over officered and under disciplined.

Only some 25% of the Tanks proved effective in war conditions. Many failed to go into action in circumstances in which an enquiry would be interesting.

Several were lost on account of incompetent [sic] caused by the substitution of one of the M.G.C. for an A.S.C. driver. Engines seized in the most strange way: oil was found to have been completely drained. Reports would come back that such and such a Tank was hopelessly bogged. An A.S.C. party would go out and have no difficulty in moving it.

Although the Tanks were not a great success yet the success was sufficient to warrant a Tank scheme on a large scale.

The failure of the Tanks was due chiefly to their faulty design… "

[delta]

Have been reading (a newly purchased) "The Tanks at Flers" by Trevor Pigeon in the last fortnight; this includes a report on the use of tanks by Maj Knothe and suggested improvements - well worth a read

[delta]

PROCONSEL

Tim

Have found out a little more the ASC drivers - consolidated details below

C1 –Champagne: Pte Horace Brotherwood KIA 15 Sep 1916 – buried at II. F. 27 Pozieres British Cemetery, Ovillers-La Boisselle. No family details

C2 – Cognac (male) Pte Herbert Ledger Rebadged to MGC and Tank Corps. (75045). Ledger also served at St Julien (Sep 1917) where he was awarded a MM for trying to recover his tank. Survived

C3- Chartreuse Pte A Boult No details of record found

C4 – Chablis (male) Pte Daniel D Cronin, Rebadged to MGC and Tank Corps. (77480). Fought at Arras, Passchendaele and Cambrai where (as a LCpl) he was awarded MM. Later promoted to Sgt. Survived.

C5 - Crème de Menthe (Male) Sgt George B Shepherd DCM Rebadged to MGC and Tank Corps. (75041).- survived

C6 – Cordon Rouge Pte Joseph Barton - rebadged to MGC and Tank Corps. (77478) –survived.

C14 (female) Pte S L Heath Not identified

Unknown role Pte WJ Nightingale - Remained in ASC

Unknown role Pte J A Tetlow - Remained in ASC – later promoted Cpl

D1: Pte Albert S Wateredge - rebadged MGC (75071) and promoted LCpl. Awarded MM for actions at Bullecourt (May 1917). Promoted to Sgt in Tank Corps –survived

D2: Cpl Ernest H Keats; remained in ASC – later promoted Sgt- survived

D3: Pte George A Simpson; rebadged to MGC then Tank Corps – survived

D4: Pte William J Shortland- Rebadged to MGC then Tank Corps – remained Pte 77489 – survived

D5 – Dolphin Pte George H Thomas MM. Pte Thomas was wounded on 15 sep 1916. Recorded as attached MGC. Rebadged to MGC. KIA 13 Apr 1917 during battle of Arras serving with D Bn Tank Corps.

D6: Sgt Herbert L Thacker MM. Thacker suffered shock on 15 Sep. Was commissioned into ASC (2Lt) and later died in Salonika (Mikra 15 Apr 1917)

D7: Pte Sydney G Barnes - remained in ASC

D8: Pte Bertram John Young MM. Young temporarily blinded but recovered and drove his vehicle back to the rally point. Shown as attached MGC on MIC but rebadged to Tank Corps 75073. KIA (aged 38) on 20 Nov 1917 whilst serving with D Bn. Grave site not known commemorated at Louveral. Son of Mrs. Martha Young, of 25, Oxford Avenue, Merton Park, Surrey

D9 Dolly: LCpl G A Saunders. Saunders was wounded during attack on Gueudecourt 16 Sep 1916. Remained in ASC – survived.

D10: LCpl Earnest J Phillips was wounded, Rebadged into MGC then Tank Corps– promoted to SSgt, KIA 29 Sep 1918 , no known grave – commemorated on Vis-en-Artois memorial panel 11. No family details

D11 - Die Hard: Pte Frank Still MM - remained in ASC - survived

D12: Cpl Robert R Murray - Rebadged MGC and survived

D13 Delilah; LCpl A P Blomfield Blomfield is listed by MH Young as being in the Coy Reserve. No MIC info

D14: LCpl Lawrence William Upton. Upton died of wounds on 16 Sep 1015 during attack on Geudecourt. Buried at III. E. 2. AIF Burial Ground, Flers. Son of Mary Upton and the late William Upton of Barnby Dun; husband of Bertha Upton, of Barnby Dun, Doncaster.

D15: Pte Albert Rowe. Rowe was injured when tank was hit by German artillery. Remained in ASC, promoted to Cpl

D16 Dracula: Pte Samuel H R Workman Remained in ASC

D17 Dinnaken: Pte Charles A Wescomb - rebadged MGC then Tank Corps( Private 75070) - survived.

D18: Pte Frederick Burrows; Rebadged MGC then Tank Corps( Private 75057) - survived

D19: Pte T Hinds- Not identified through MIC (still searching)

D20: Pte Alfred F Bowerman; Bowerman suffered shock following action on 15 Sep 1916 – remained in ASC

D21: Pte Herbert E Wilson Rebadged to MGC (75072) surviced

D22: Pte Ernest C Howes - Shown as attached MGC - survived

D23: Pte Osmond W Rossiter. Rebadged MGC then Tank Corps( Private 75066) - survived

D24: Pte Frederick G Wood - Wood was wounded on 15 Sep 1916. Rebadged MGC then Tank Corps

D25: Pte John Maude Rebadged to MGC then Tank Corps as Pte (75063)- survived

[Simon Jones]

Have been reading (a newly purchased) "The Tanks at Flers" by Trevor Pigeon in the last fortnight; this includes a report on the use of tanks by Maj Knothe and suggested improvements - well worth a read

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stephen - is it the same as the report I quoted that I saw all those years ago?

regards

Simon

[delta]

The report is dated 228th September 1916 and does not include the phrases you quote.

It discusses the prepartion for battle, the inexperience of the drivers, a list of the mechanical troubles - particularly track trouble, the weakness of the steering tail, track brakes, engine lubrication and the gear box- and the problem of repairs arising from a shortage of artificer,tools and spare parts.

[Simon Jones]

Thanks Stephen

Simon

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

In addition, Mike Young records that one of the volunteer drivers (Pte PH Johnson) was travelling to Elveden by train when he met Col Swinton, who aranegd that he be commissioned. Johnson commanded one of the tanks at Flers-Courcellette although I have been unable to identify which. He subsequently was awarded the DSO whilst serving as the Commander of D Bn’s workshop in 1917 and later awarded the MBE and Legion d’Honneur. ........................ If any one knows any more, (or has contrary info) please let me know

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stephen - maybe "contrary info" I'm afraid. - I'm not aware of the source which you quote, but I have done quite a lot of research on "D" Company Tank Corps officers during the period following their arrival in France, and unless there were two PH Johnsons in "D" Coy, both of whom ended up as Lt Cols with DSO's, then there is something awry with the account above. I'm aware of a PH Johnson, who was quite a remarkable man, - but I cant reconcile him to what MY apparently says.

You wont identify which tank ("my") Phillip Henry Johnson was driving at Flers-Courcelette because he wasnt there ! - His medal records may confuse a little as well because they are innacurate and dont in any case give his first overseas date - they simply show him as a Lieut in the MG Corps and a Lt Col in the Tank Corps - those details being far enough away from the full facts to throw you off the scent.

I have to confess that I didnt delve too deeply into PH Johnson's record because my main interest at the time I was making these searches was with "D" Coy officers who actually commanded tanks during 1916, so Johnson's records were only of "passing interest", - but, from my notes >

# born 1877 # served in the 1899-1902 SA War, Steam Road Transport Dept # 2nd Lt on probation 20/4/16 in the Army Service Corps # appointment confirmed 1/8/16 # appointed Lieut 9/9/16 # to France with 711 MT Coy ASC 22/9/16, attached workshop unit (ie medal records wrong) # transfered to "A" Heavy Branch MGC as Workshop Officer 18/11/16 # to "D" HB MGC Workshops 17/12/16 and to be Temp Major whilst commanding.

I have nothing to indicate that he ever saw active service in a Tank - which doesnt of course mean that he didnt, but it does look rather unlikely. His background was technical / heavy machinery and traction engines etc, and he'd spent a lot of time in India, from whence he returned to enlist in, I think, 1915. I dont recall seeing any WW1 service in the ranks and one of my (scribbled !) notes shows him working for the Ministry of Munitions before applying for a commission. By the end of the war he was a Temp Lt Col and was employed as a Superintendant in the Tank Design & Experimental Dept, and post war was involved with the shipping to and testing of Tanks in India and Canada, the WO wanting to know how they stood up to tropical and arctic conditions. I have a note of him being awarded the CBE, DSO, and being MiD'd.

- Dont take all of that as absolutely gospel without checking because as I said I didnt delve too deeply because he was "just" a peripheral personality to the events I was interested in.

regards - Tom

[delta]

Tom

Many thanks for the info

Only goes to prove that you can't believe everything you read in books!

Stephen:ph34r: