Fromelles Mass Grave

[Auimfo]

According to today's Melbourne Herald-Sun, the issue of the missing Australians in a mass grave at Fromelles is to be officially investigated. Perhaps, with a little luck, the site at Pheasant Wood will be carefully examined and these men can finally be given their deserved recognition.

Tim L.

VETERANS Affairs Minister De-Anne Kelly has ordered an international investigation into whether 163 Diggers missing since 1916 lie in a mass grave in northern France.

Mrs Kelly marked the 89th anniversary of the Fromelles catastrophe by authorising experts to search European war records that may clarify the fate of the men.

Army historians, Office of War Graves staff and World War I academic experts will try to resolve whether the 163 Diggers were buried at Pheasant Wood near Fromelles.

They were among 5063 Diggers killed or wounded on the eve of July 19, 1916.

Victorian campaigners, who organised a service yesterday at the Shrine for about 100 descendants of 15th Brigade soldiers from World War I, were delighted.

"These men deserved better than being put into a mass grave," said campaigner Lambis Englezos.

If records from the British and German armies can confirm the 163 were likely buried at Pheasant Wood, the French Government could be asked to allow a controlled dig.

Mrs Kelly said a panel of experts who sat in May had found that sufficient doubt existed over the fate of the men to justify the overseas investigation.

Amateur historians believe the victims of Australia's first Western Front battle were buried in a mass grave by Bavarian troops.

Mr Englezos made a day-long presentation of maps, wartime photos and Red Cross records to experts from the army's history unit, Australian War Memorial and Office of War Graves.

Other potential sites -- Fournes and Manlaque Farm -- were rejected by the panel as inconclusive.

"The experts have concluded that of three sites discussed, there remained sufficient doubt about Pheasant Wood to warrant further historical research," Mrs Kelly said.

She said questions over whether the site was a mass grave and whether all remains were removed after the war had to be resolved.

Australian Army historian Roger Lee said Australia's Chief of Army

Lt-Gen Peter Leahy would be seeking help from his British equivalent.

"We historians are excited about this. It is the kind of detective-style work we like to do and don't often get the chance," he said.

World War I aerial photos from 1915 onwards and intelligence reports on the Pheasant Wood site were needed.

The Office of Australian War Graves will be checking honour rolls at cemeteries around Fromelles for clues about which areas were searched for the missing men.

And a Sydney University expert in old German language, Professor John Williams, would examine Bavarian military records.

[Andrew P]

Hi Tim

Thanks for posting the article. Hope the paper hasn't jumped the gun yet as I heard this morning that Minister Kelly hadn't yet made a final decision about the mass graves.

Cheers

Andrew

[bluedog]

Andrew & Others

May I be so bold as to say

"About Bloody Time"

Peter

[6th Shropshires]

Great news Tim.

[ianw]

I can see absolutely no reason why this inquiry should not go ahead with all speed.

I would have thought that modern forensic techniques, archaeological techniques etc would be able to solve this riddle pretty rapidly. As has been said, these men deserve these ativities.

[Max]

What I don't understand is why, given that the landowner is onboard, are test pits not being dug at the highlighted site by a small ban of qualified pros? Surely it has to be cheaper and more conclusive than following a paperwork trail, or am I just being impatient?

Andy

[Martin Brown]

Hi all

I've been following this with some interest as an archaeologist who works on the Front.

First can I say how pleased I am this might go ahead, I've spoken to a number of folk concerned about Fromelles, including Lambis Englezos who sent me loads of interesting and convincing stuff.

I can understand the impatience but time spent on recce is never wasted so let's be sure about the location before we put in spades.

Finally, 2 pleas. The work must be done by trained professionals. This isn't me trying to set up a closed shop, rather what I am trying to flag up is the importance of having the technical knowledge to deal with human remains, artefacts, bones, textile remains, kit and personal effects, all of which will halp answer questions like: are these the right guys? Which is my ancestor? Who were they really (which the effects helps you discover)?

Also whoever does the digging needs to have a good conservation lab on standby because the fragile stuff is what leads you to the identities - things like papers, postcards, book fragments, personal effects that are made of fragile materials.

Oh and I might add that digging a site like this is a traumatic experience, so they need to be prepared for that.

Any help I can give...

Congratulations to all involved in the campaign for getting this far

Martin

[ianw]

I agree with Martin that every pain should be taken to ensure that all possible ID

evidence is gathered.

[roel22]

I'm not an expert.

But archeologists nowadays also use modern techniques like ground-radar, in stead of spades. So why -it shouldn't be too costly, I think- not do a radar-survey first?

I'm sure the farmers will be pleased!

regards

Roel

[J T Gray]

Roel,

Likewise I'm not an expert either. However I don't think we can advocate a geophysical study without knowing a bit about the ground conditions, and the various sorts of geophys. in a battlefield environment. Given that there is probably a great number of holes in the ground round there and the soil has probably been disturbed in many places to a considerable depth I can think of a number of reasons why geophys. might not be an ideal solution. I certainly wouldn't want to do a magnetometry survey, as it'll just pick up every shell splinter for miles!

I'm watching this one with a great deal of interest to see what actually happens. I think we are better off waiting with bated breath than speculating (ain't I the spoilsport!)

ADrian

I'm not an expert.

But archeologists nowadays also use modern techniques like ground-radar, in stead of spades. So why -it shouldn't be too costly, I think- not do a radar-survey first?

I'm sure the farmers will be pleased!

regards

Roel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[spike10764]

"These men deserved better than being put into a mass grave," said campaigner Lambis Englezos.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They deserve better and "fingers crossed" this will be sorted out favourably and the men will get proper burials in the not too distant future

[Martin Brown]

Just to respond quickly to the comments about geophysical survey. At best these survey techniques will tell you there is a large infilled hole or area of disturbed ground there, which we already know from air photos. At worst results will tell you the area is covered in metal fragments. Unless I've missed something with GPR it won't show the skeltons, although I suppose it might show strategically located buttons or buckles. Even then I'm not sure the effort would be justified. So really it's a case of horses for courses and in this instance I think going straight to limited excavation is the way forward. That approach would confirm the nature of the site and if the bodies are really still are in there, as I understand there is some debate in that area. A second phase of work could then be wound up for full excavation with all the back up I described above.

[mcderms]

I agree with Martin. Geophys will only show larger objects like walls. Magnotometers will not distinguish between a cap badge and a modern coin. The only way to do this is on your hands and knees with a trowel and brush.

Long overdue and I hope for a happy ending for the Diggers and their families back in Oz.