16th (Irish) Division.

[Guest adrian.field]

On the 7th June 1917, this Brigade fought at Messines, within their ranks were the 7th & 8th battalions of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers who were raised at Omagh, and the 7th & 8th battalions of the Royal Irish Fusiliers, who were raised at Armagh. Everything would suggest these battalions should have been in the 36th (Ulster) Division. Can anyone help, as to why they were in the 16th, if indeed there is a reason at all. I have an idea, but would welcome others. Thanks adrian.

[the gunners dream]

The 10th (Irish) and the 16th (Irish) Divisions had mixed religions in them.

In fact certain regiments recruited from both sides of the so call divide. Ultimately it did not matter to these men where you came from and what you did.

Certain battalions who recruited south and north went into the line side by side. This is so at Messines.

Again, being at work I can't give you numbers, but I know this is the case.

One book I recommend you read is Tommy by Richard Holmes. He devotes 3 pages in his book about the recruiting of the Irish divisions in WWI and will give you a very good incite into what you are asking about.

[Steven Broomfield]

The 10th and 16th Divisions were both part of the First two New Armies - the 10th in K1, the 16th in K2. As a result, they recruited from all regiments recruiting in Ireland.

The 36th was recruited specifically from the UVF, so is represented only by the 3 regiments recruiting in Ulster (i.e. from the largely Protestantcommunity) - the Royal irish Rifles, and the Royal irish and Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.

[GWRCo]

Hi gang!

just read the above info, and would like to add something that is not very well known about outside of Northern Ireland today. The patch for 107 (Ulster) brigade (which is a T.A brigade) is a red hand on top of a green shamrock set onto a black background.

The badge in both large and small sizes (small size issued today) is a representation of the 36th and 16th divisions who fought side by side at the battle of messines in 1917!

Hope this wee bit of info enlightens you!!

tim w

[MartinWills]

Adrian,

The background to this is covered in the history of the 16th Division - Ireland's Unknown Soldiers - the 16th (Irish) Division in the Great War by Terence Denman Irish Academic Press 1992 and second impression 2003. It is well worth getting hold of a copy to read and it should be easily available.

Martin

[curranl]

Hello All,

slightly off the topic of the 16th Division, but related to the question. This is from The Tenth (Irish) Division at Gallipoli by Bryan Cooper:

" .....the 10th Division was a thing unique in itself.Ireland is a land of long and bitter memories, and those memories make it extremely difficult for Irishmen to unite for any common purpose. Many had believed it impossible, and would have prophesised that the attempt to create an Irish Division composed of men of every class, creed and political opinion would be foredoomed to failure. And yet it succeeded. The old quarrels, the inherited animosities were forgotten, and men who would have scowled at one another without speaking became comrades and friends. Only those who know Ireland can realise how difficult this was.

The Division was not composed of professional soldiers; many of the officers and men had played, or, at least, their relatives had played, an active part in the agrarianand political struggles that have raged in Ireland for the past 40 years. Yet all this went for nothing; the bond of common service and common sacrifice proved so strong and enduring that Catholic and Protestant, Unionist and Nationalist, lived and fought and died side by side like brothers. Little was spoken concerning the points on which we differed, and once we had tacitly agreed to let the past be buried we found thousands of points on which we agreed"

Regards,

Liam.

[swizz]

I think I'm right in saying that the 49th Brigade was the one cleared by the War Office for recruits from the Irish National Volunteers, although the battalions you name aren't the ones I would have associated with it. for example I know a lot of northern nationalists joined the 6th Connaught Rangers and 6th Royal Irish Regiment. I suppose by 1917 the structure of the division could have been shuffled round a bit.

Battalions of the northern Irish regiments served in various divisions. The 36th Division was recruited more or less entirely in Ulster, hence the presence only of northern regiments in that division. Both the 10th and 16th Divisions recruited on an all-Ireland basis, so its not usual to see northern and southern regiments represented in those divisions.

Hope this helps - Denman's book is the one to go for if you want more details!

Swizz

[Guest adrian.field]

As always, plenty of food for thought, and good sound advice. Many thanks to all who have taken the trouble to reply. I may come back to you on this, as I had hoped for a more straightforward answer. Adrian.

[Desmond7]

I too would point towards Denman .. but also to 'Orange Green and Khaki' by Tom Johnstone.

Here's my view:-

10th (Irish) Division ... probably the nearest you will come to a cross-community/all-Ireland formation. Certainly I would argue that the 6th Royal Irish Rifles would be the prime candidate for the most 'mixed' Irish unit in the war.

It truly was Orange, Green and Khaki! This Division really consisted of the eager beavers who just wanted to join up and were not waiting for any politician to give them the green light.

16th (Irish) Division ... the formation closely associated with Redmond and the INV movement. No point in pussy-footing around .. it was the 'Catholic/Nationalist' Division and its recruits from Ulster would have been almost totally drawn from that social grouping.

For example 6th Btn Connaught Rangers had a large swathe of Catholic volunteers from Belfast and particularly the western part of the city.

Catholics in rural areas/county towns etc would have gravitated towards the btns. so-called 'Northern' Regiments which were being recruited for the 16th Div.

As casualties mounted and replacements became harder to find from home, the 'personality' of the Division changed.

36th (Ulster) Division ... largely recruited and based around the Ulster Volunteers formations. Again, no point in beating around the bush, a protestant/unionist formation which even its respected historian, Cyril Falls, described in this fashion.

Latterly, especially after Langemarck and most definitely after Cambrai, it was reinforced the 'regular' btns. of the 'Northern' Irish regts. and the ethos of the Division changed accordingly.

Put bluntly ... Prods R Us in the Ulster Div. Northern Catholics especially drawn to 16th Div.

[the gunners dream]

One interesting piece comes from Richard Holmes:

'The same music could speak to both. When the pipes of the Royal Irish howled out 'Brian Boru' that tune 'traditionally played by some Irish regiments to lift hearts and square shoulders', in the assault on Guillemont on 15 September 1916 a man did not have to come from the south to feel his spirits soar. And when a northern raised battalion of the Irish Rifles met a southern based battalion on the march with its band playing the old rebel air 'She's the Most Distressful Country', there were cheers of approval.'

From Tommy by the above author.

I feel divide aside and differences aside WWI had the ability to have those rivalrys put aside for another day. It's a pity it couldn't have remained so.

[Desmond7]

From a human point of view I agree on your last point.

However, there has been a tendency amongst historians to trot out the very quote about the 'most distressful country' time and again as if this typified the 'friendly rivalry' between Irish formations composed largely of men from each side of the religious divide.

The truth is a lot more complicated.

Denys Reitz for example tells of the occasion when the 16th Div. had to get their water issue from a depot controlled by the Ulster Div.

Lo and behold when the water was delivered to the Irish Div it was found to be in containers marked 'Boyne Water'! Tempers flared for a while but an inter-div football match was played shortly afterwards with no mass riots so I would say that pranks and slagging were one thing but naked hostility was rarely in evidence amongst those in the firing line.

However, there are other instances in the post March 1918 period when soldiers from the two divsions 'fell till' each other in German POW camps and in 'Three Cheers for the Derrys' a soldier relates how he and his three Ulster Div mates were 'not allowed' to stay in a hut largely occupied by 16th Div. men.

What I'm trying to say is that we should never let our view of the situation be clouded by the 'romance' which seems to be associated with Irish regiments and the day-dreaming of some historians (and even upper class officers at the time) about 'what might have been'?

It should always be remembered that the ordinary soldiers of these formations were men of their time ... they had the bigotries, political aspirations and rivalries associated with this period in Irish history and they were not left on the shelf when they donned the uniform of the British army.

While the senior officers of both formations with unionist/nationalist beliefs may have been able to sit down at the mess table and have a protracted argument about home rule etc without getting physically wired into each other ... I strongly contend that any such debate amongst the 'citizen soldiers' in the rank and file could well have descended into a free-for-all!

I would sincerely like to hear views from other Forum members with Irish connections who broadly agree/drastically disagree with these musings!

Cheers Des

PS Thank God for a topic I have to think about for a while. Well done that poster.

[the gunners dream]

Desmond7

I totally agree with you on that point. And I also agree this is an excellent subject to discuss.

What I was trying to get at was that rivalries could be put aside. I realise that that was not the case in the long run.

I served in NI for 3 years and studied the history while I was there. I also had the priveledge to speak to both factions and tried to see their points of view.

I fully realise that the ordinary soldier in an Irish Battalion had his own views and bigotry, which I also saw whilst I was over there.

I see it on a daily basis now when dealing with people who report problems etc regarding today's incredibly difficult problems with immigrants, racism etc.

[Guest adrian.field]

Desmond7 and The gunners dream, thank you for your replies, that is what I was looking for, some "meat on the bone". Both my Grandfathers, and Great Uncles served with Irish Regiments 1915-1920.

[Desmond7]

And .. half cut as I am ... people SHOULD discuss it in these terms.

Everyone has their historical loyalties and that is the way it should be .. historical discussion.

Des for bed .. wiped out.

Don't even go there ...

[Steven Broomfield]

In "The Story of the 29th Division" (Stair Gillon), it is reported that the 1st Royal Dublin Fusiliers, on the way to the attack at Broodseinde on 4th October 1917, "marched to the line by Companies, singing Irish Republican songs, the band in camp speeding them off to the strains of 'When Ireland is a Nation'". At the time the Dubs were under orders to join the 16th Division.

I merely post this to add colour, with no real opinion on the matter - but being good soldiers, they were there to fight a war; the civil war could wait until they got home.

By the way, Des, the quote fro Denys Reitz - where did it come from? He is a really interesting character: I've read "Commando" and "No Outspan", so I'm guessing this is from the one in the middle, so to speak.

Cheers

Steven

[curranl]

Hello Des and All,

I had a think about this one over the weekend and consulted a few books, some of them first hand accounts. A fair general summary would be as follows;

For the men in the front line trenches, it didn't seem to matter in the slighest what the political or religious views of your comrades were - what mattered was that they were your comrades. From what I understand, men who have been in combat toghether share a special bond that transcends issues like these. Those of us who are lucky enough to have never been in combat will probably never experience it. If you read The Red Horizon or There's a Devil in the Drum for example, men are often identified by the County of origin, but rarely is reference made to their political or religious beliefs. The authors are far more focused on their abilities as soldiers.

Out of the line and in reserve there seems to have been a good deal of slagging - the 'Boyne water' episode being typical. Most of this seems to have been fairy good humored, with both sides giving as good as they got.

I suspect where the problems arose was when these men went back to their communities after the war. Whatever tolerence they had developed was, I imagine, soon lost when back among their peers. Don't forget also that the men from the South returned to a very different political landscape than they had left. There was the quiet year of 1919 before all hell broke loose for the next few years. Many of the men from the South who served during 1914-1918 learned to keep their mouths shut and their heads down in the post war years. Many, like my grand uncle, emigrated to more welcoming shores (he went to Australia, before settling in New Zealand).

It does raise all sorts of what if scenarios:

What if the Easter Rising had not taken place and Ireland was given Home Rule as a "thank you" for the participation of so many Irish men in the Army. What would have happened in the North?

What if the returning (possibly more tolerant?) soldiers from both sides of the political/religious divide became a force for moderation within their own communities?

And so on and so on!

Regards,

Liam.

[Desmond7]

Quoting Liam:- If you read The Red Horizon or There's a Devil in the Drum for example, men are often identified by the County of origin, but rarely is reference made to their political or religious beliefs. The authors are far more focused on their abilities as soldiers.

AGREED ... with this proviso ... remember that 'Drum' was written from the perspective of a man who had made the conscious decision to join the regular army. I would argue that the 'group personality' of a pre-war unit would be an entirely different persona than that of 'duration volunteers'?

These men were intensely proud of their regimental family/traditions/reputation ... they were the professionals ... a breed apart.

Quoting Liam again .... What if the Easter Rising had not taken place and Ireland was given Home Rule as a "thank you" for the participation of so many Irish men in the Army. What would have happened in the North?

Mega what-if!!! Nurofen inducing thought processes in motion ... considered opinion forthcoming. Initial reaction ... mayhem. But it might not be as simple as that ...

I'll be back, back, back .....

[the gunners dream]

Whoooaaaghh! Now we're getting somewhere!

I think some of the questions posed by Liam may have a thread of its own!

My own thoughts on this is that the British Government let these men down in a big way when they returned home. Ultimately it had a knock on effect that still reverberates today.

Sad, when it is such a beautiful place to live in.

[curranl]

Hello Lads!

Glad to have stirred the pot!!

Des,

On a slightly different (but related topic) have you had any word of Trooper? He was from up your way and was a student doing either a Masters or PhD on the 10th (Irish) Division. I haven't seen him post in an age, but his material was of particular interest to me and I was wondering how he was getting on.

I am assuming Trooper is a he

PS

Gunner's Dream,

I would have to say the Free State Government (and the Government of the Republic in it's turn) let these men down more that anyone else. They were effectively ignored.

Regards,

Liam.

[Desmond7]

Haven't seen Trooper on forum for a fair while now.

Still arguing with myself on the other point!

[Steven Broomfield]

Des - any answer on the Denys Reitz quote?

[Desmond7]

Trekking on!!

[BatterySergeantMajor]

I agree fully with Des' postings. I am also convinced that the the "comrades- in- arms" mentality between 36th and 16th, although existing, is actyally a bit overemphasized because it is useful in actual politics (which I will not discuss). But I admit: it has an important symbolical valour.

It should also be mentioned that the returning soldiers of the South reacted in different ways on the new situation in their country: indeed some kept their mouth shut and some emigrated. But there was also a number of ex- soldiers who had lost their illusions and joined the IRA.

One thing is indeed very clear: the returning Southern soldiers were abandoned by both governments, the British and the Free State.

Erwin

[the gunners dream]

PS

Gunner's Dream,

                            I would have to say the Free State Government (and the Government of the Republic in it's turn) let these men down more that anyone else. They were effectively ignored.

Regards,

Liam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for that Liam, I just think it's tragic that from treatment by both governments that these men who had fought for their beliefs, saw their friends die and went through hell, came home to a completely different Ireland.

No wonder so many moved away, or stayed silent.

[Desmond7]

Having thought about the 'Easter Rising What If' ... I came to the following scenarios.

1. The rising takes place ... it fails. Instead of court martial and shooting of many ringleaders, the British take the sensible option. They intern the captives in a camp until the end of the war. The popular support which largely emanated from the executions is denied to the Republican cause.

The Irish Nationalist Party do not have to cope with a militant Sinn Fein and achieve electoral success in post-war elections. I still believe the best they could hope for was a 26-county 'Free State' given the situation in Ulster.

NOW .... the Easter Rising leaders and followers are released from internment as one of the first legal rulings from the Irish Nats. The militant Republicans split .. some take the pragmatic view that 26 Counties is no mean feat/others want a the whole of Ireland re-united.

Internal feud on a wide scale which descends into a killing match. Pro-Treaty 26 County faction win the 'mini war' with backing from the Irish Nats who control the newly appointed Civic Guards ands fledgling Irish Defence Force.

Possible?

2. The Easter Rising does NOT take place due to whatever reason .. let's assume the Brits have the operation well penetrated and subvert the whole plan.

I would still maintain that the Westminster Parliament would have taken the 'patch it up' scenario of partition. The problem of Ulster would still have loomed large.

If there is one truth about the time which is abundantly clear it is the reason why the unionists were fighting. They considered themselves an integral part of the Empire and believed that by doing their perceived 'duty' it would add weight to their cause.

The realists amongst them knew fine well that the idea of the island of Ireland subordinate to GB was a non-starter ... by the latter stages of the war it was clear that the six county solution was on the cards.

Thus ... partition was a cert whatever way you look at it.

UNLESS ... British government does the unthinkable and sends in troops to force a United Ireland on the majority of people in the six northern counties. I'm not saying that certain politicians were incapable of such an act ... but it must be the least likely scenario.