Berkshire Territorials

[Broznitsky]

Caveat: I have absolutely no interest in or knowledge of the seller of this item.

Interesting photo on eBay Canada (2183685318) allegedly of a group of Berkshire Territorial men on parade armed with Japanese carbines. Anybody know more about this armament and would this have been a one-off for a small group of men? The more I read about trench warfare the more a carbine might have been nice to have equipped with.

[Paul Reed]

I have a number of photos of British soldiers with Japanese weapons; the New Army and Second and Third Line TF units did not have enough SMLE, or even Long Lees, and for training purposes the British acquiried rifles from our Japanese ally. To my knowledge, they were never used overseas. I suspect many of them didn't even come with any ammunition!

[Mike_H]

Britain acquired something like 200000 Arisaka rifles & carbines shortly after the outbreak of the war. They were for use as a stop-gap while British rifle production caught up with the rapid expansion of the army. They were issued to the Royal Navy and to New Army and second line territorial units during training. A lot of the British purchased Arisakas (about 128000) were shipped to Russia in 1916-17 when the pressure on British production had eased. I have seen numerous photos of British soldiers in training with Arisaka rifles and have handled one marked up to a Service Battalion of the Manchester Regiment. I have an Arisaka bayonet with Royal Marine markings which has the special belt frog issued with the 1914 pattern leather equipment.

Mike

[Charles Fair]

Ohayo gozaimas, Broznitsky-san,

There is information about the issue of Japanese rifles in many of the War Diaries of 2nd line TF units. For example the 2/19th London Regiment (part of 2/2 London Bde [later 180 Bde], 2/2 London Div [later 60 Div]) had just 79 British rifles on 2 January 1915, and rifles of any type were desperately needed for training. Its War Diary (WO 95/3031) has the following:

6/1/1915 "Secret order from WO to indent for rifles, bayonets, scabbards & ammunition (Japanese pattern). Indent accordingly for 963 rifles, 963 bayonets, 963 scabbards, 192,600 rounds ball ammunition (service), 24,065 rounds ball ammunition (practice)"

23/1/1915 "69 boxes ammunition (Japanese pattern) received" The Bde War Diary (also WO 95/3031) adds "consignment of Japanese rifles, bayonets and ammunition arrived Reigate station and removed to battalion headquarters' ". It goes on to say that each battalion was allocated 963 rifles, 958 bayonets and 100 rounds per rifle.

26/1/1915 "96 cases rifles & bayonets (Japanese pattern) received"

27/1/1915 "100 rifles & bayonets issued to 'A' Coy. These rifles arrived thickly coated with lubricant considerable time was occupied in cleaning them before issue"

The next few days just repeat "issue of rifles continued". (To give an idea of the slow speed with which 2nd line TF battalions were kitted out, the battalion still had no horses, vehicles, saddlery or harnesses on 31 Jan.)

During the next few weeks many of the rifle companies fired the weapon on the ranges at Hythe. According the history of the 2/19th "they reported the weapon to be very accurate though unwieldy".

In a Brigade report from early May 1915 says that the CO of the 2/17th Londons "considers that the training would be more satisfactory if the British Rifle were issued, as it is a better weapon than the Japanese rifle." The brigadier comments "I agree, but consider that the musketry training now being carried out is a useful preparation for further practice with the British Rifle later on".

The brigade and battalion carried on using the Japanese rifles until mid November. The 2/19th Diary notes on 13/11/1915 "525 .303 rifles received" and on 15/11/1915 "Japanese rifles returned".

In summary, it does appear to have been a useful stopgap until war production of SMLEs caught up with demand. I agree with Reed-san that they do not appear to have been used overseas. I suspect those rifles handed back by 60 Div in Nov 1915 may then have been used to equip units on Home Defence duties, training depots, VTC units etc.

[charlesmessenger]

Quoting John Nettleton, who trained with a Japanese rifle: `It took about five seconds to take the thing to pieces and about five hours to reassemble it - more if you had not taken the precaution to spread a towel or a piece of paper on the ground to catch the bits and pieces that sprung out. They were beautiful toys, but quite useless under war conitions.'

Charles M

[Charles Fair]

'They were beautiful toys, but quite useless under war conitions.'

In terms of user friendliness it does appear to have had something in common with the Canadian Ross Rifle.

Not unlike the Army's current SA80 5.56 mm rifle which had some excellent new features such as the sight, but which was nothing like as robust as the good old SLR which preceeded it.

[Terry_Reeves]

Interesting to see how things have progressed (or not) since WW1. I know nothing about the Japanese rifle but from Charles M's quotation it matches Charles Fair's comment about the original issue of the SA 80, which I had some dealings with. The SLR, in terms of simplicity at least, probaby equated to the SMLE. The Ross rifle was a "straight pull" weapon, which had a reputation for accuracy, unfortunately it did not stand up to the mucky conditions of the battlefield - rather like the original version of the SA80!

As one of my old instructors once told me: on the battlefield, "don't give the soldier anything more complicated than a torch, which has a switch that says off and on and a light that confirms it."

I thought he was a cynic, in hindsight he was probably right.

Terry Reeves

[Simon Furnell]

A classic,Terry.

That should be enrolled in a hall of fame,somewhere.

I can hear the old sod,uttering it now,and i have never served in H.M Forces.

Thanks for sharing that one.

All the best.

Simon.

[jhill]

I have found one reference to Japanese weapons actually being used in the field. Robert Rhodes James' Gallipoli writes that at ANZAC in June or July, 1915 four Japanese mortars were used to bombard, to good effect, the Turkish trenches. The supply of bombs gave out and the War Office said that new supplies would have to be purchased in Japan. Unfortunately, the author does not reveal his source.

[charlesmessenger]

Arthur Behrend in `Make Me a Soldier' also mentions a Japanese mortar being used on Gallipoli. He said that it took some time to understand how it worked because the instructions were in Japanese and that the first time it was fired the bomb fell straight back on the mortar!

Charles M

[Charles Fair]

Robert Rhodes James' Gallipoli writes that at ANZAC in June or July, 1915 four Japanese mortars were used to bombard, to good effect, the Turkish trenches.

Now you mention it, I am sure I saw one of these in the Gallipoli display at the Australian War Memorial in Canberra when I visited it 3 yrs ago. Unfortunately I didnt take a pic. IIRC it was similar size to the 2" mortar used by the British Army until recently.