Malte Znaniecki Posted 17 July , 2005 Share Posted 17 July , 2005 Hi, I'm trying to find out: what happened to the german soldiers, buried on a cemetery beside the Menin road nearby Klein-Zillebeke. The unit which had raised the cemetery in January (?) 1916 was "2. Sanitäts-Kompanie (XV. Armee-Korps)". The cemetery was removed after the Great War, as I know. The soldiers buried there, were mostly from german 30th and 39th Divisions. One group (and that's my special interest) was from "Division Hofmann". This division was a mixture of units from the german X. Army-Corps and german X. Reserve-Army-Corps. "Division Hofmann" was under command of german XV. Army-Corps for some days in November 1914 and took part on the attack of 17th of November in the sector of german 39th Division (area: Klein-Zillebeke - Zwarteleen). The Division had bad losses that day and lots of the fallen were buried at the places where they died. In the beginning of 1916 a number of them were removed from their graves and have been buried on the cemetery, I told from above. I'll place a scetch of the place here tomorrow. As I was informed, some of the bodies came to the Langemark German Cemetery after the war. Might anybody help me? best regards from Hamburg Malte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 17 July , 2005 Share Posted 17 July , 2005 Malte, I have contacted you off Forum. (Don't be too optimistic.) And if other Forum members think they can help you, please let them go ahead ! Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 18 July , 2005 Share Posted 18 July , 2005 Malte. I'm a little confused as to the Menin Road reference as Kleine Zillebeke is (comparatively) quite a distance from it. Is the cemetery you are referrring to the one which gave the name "Graveyard Cottage" to an adjoining building on British maps (approx. 500m to the North East of Kleine Zillebeke and immediately south of "Shrewsbury Forest")? Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 18 July , 2005 Share Posted 18 July , 2005 Dave, Exactly, that was my problem too (and one of the reasons that I contacted Malte off Forum). Klein Zillebeke is indeed 3 km (almost 2 miles) south of Menin Road. But off course, looking at it from Hamburg, what difference does that make ? By the way, could you give the name of the map, and grid, where I can find "Graveyard Cottage" ? I suppose it's not on the map "Ypres" (28 NW 4), where Klein Zillebeke is in the bottom right corner ? (It's the only map of the area I have right here, but I might see its eastern neigbour tomorrow in Ypres.) But let's be patient. I'm sure Malte will post the sketch today. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 18 July , 2005 Share Posted 18 July , 2005 Hello, I know exactly what you're looking for. Be aware that that particular cemetery was a really small one. I should take a look through my cemetery registers to find more of those men. I don't know if I can have a look at the register of this cemetery in the near future (I don't have it copied yet), but I'll let you know. Regards, Jan PS: How did you know about this cemetery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malte Znaniecki Posted 18 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 18 July , 2005 Hello Aurel, Dave and Jan thank you all very much for your interest in my questions. This will be followed by a scetch part of a private document (Benachrichtigung von Angehörigen), which I can place here just particulary and not complete, in respect to the living family members of a soldier, who died in this area on 17th November 1914. I am allowed to send the full document-file to all of you as a private email. This will happen soon. Malte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malte Znaniecki Posted 18 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 18 July , 2005 this is the scetch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 18 July , 2005 Share Posted 18 July , 2005 So the cemetery is approx. 300 m west of Groenenburg Farm. Jan, In your article in Zonneheem (juni 2002, page 38) you describe a German cemetery "Groenenburg (Nr. 81)" as : "Hoogstwaarschijnlijk lag deze begraafplaats aan de andere kant van de vooroorlogse 'Groenenburghoeve' op de scheiding van Zillebeke en Zandvoorde. Deze hoeve (...) was voor de oorlog gelegen langs de Kranenburgstraat kant Zillebeke. [= consistent with Malte's sketch ] Het kerkhof lag vermoedelijk in het bos op Zandvoordse grond op een boogscheut van de Vijfwegen" So, is Malte's cemetery the same as this Groenenburg Cemetery ? (I'm asking because the last quoted sentence ("Zandvoordse grond") does not seem in agreement with this cemetery being west of the Farm. Or am I wrong ? I do not know where the boundary between Zillebeke and Zandvoorde is / was.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 18 July , 2005 Share Posted 18 July , 2005 So the cemetery is approx. 300 m west of Groenenburg Farm.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Aurel. It seems to be, therefore, in the immediate vicinity of "Graveyard Cottage" (28 NE, J 31) - but to the south of it? There is usually a reason behind the British naming of certain places. The below scan is from 28 NW4& NE 3 (parts of) ed.6a. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malte Znaniecki Posted 19 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 19 July , 2005 Jan, on this page http://www.vogesenkaempfe14-18.de/walfri.htm I found a picture: "Waldfriedhof" of Kgl. Württ. Inf.Regt.126 (39. Inf.Div.). I think, this could be the place I am looking for. Is it possible to get this picture from you in a higher resolution ? best regards Malte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McKerm Posted 21 July , 2005 Share Posted 21 July , 2005 Malte I think this map shows the location of the Waldfriedhof of the IR 126. But I'm not sure if this is the cemetery, you're looking for! Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 21 July , 2005 Share Posted 21 July , 2005 Frank, Interesting, and ... confusing. So the cemetery may have been approx. 300 m north of Groenenburg, and not 300 m west of Groenenburg, as I (some of us) thought. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malte Znaniecki Posted 21 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 July , 2005 Frank, thank you so very much for your attachment. I have contacted you off Forum. The map helped me to change my mind. I had another look on the Document which my scetch is from and found the place, where the grave has been, signed with "56", the grave-Number. The place is in western direction not far from southern part of "Jäger-Wäldchen" (not to be seen on your map). It seems like "Waldfriedhof" of Inf.Regt. 126 (300 meters in the north of Groenenburg Ferme) ist not the place I am looking for. Malte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 21 July , 2005 Share Posted 21 July , 2005 Malte, Yes, based on your sketch I assumed that the cemetery was west of Groenenburg, but it's interesting to see on Frank's sketch that there is another (?) cemetery north of Groenenburg as well ! I suppose that Frank has no sketch showing the area west of Groenenburg Farm ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 22 July , 2005 Share Posted 22 July , 2005 Hello, The Waldfriedhof was West of Groenenburg (I should have a look for a map somewhere). The grave Malte searches was an Einzelgrab or Geländegrab and was not in a cemetery. However, in 1915 and 1916 a lot of these Geländegräber were concentrated in larger cemeteries. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 22 July , 2005 Share Posted 22 July , 2005 Jan, I'm afraid I am about to give up : it all becomes too puzzling for me. However, could you try to give an answer to my following questions ? 1. The cemetery "Groenenburg", is that the same as "Waldfriedhof I.R. 126" ? I suppose it is ? (Actually this is what you say in the Zonneheem article. But I just want to be sure.) 2. On McKerm's map (posting # 13) there is a cemetery north of Groenenburg. You seem to believe that Groenenburg Friedhof / Waldfriedhof I.R. 126 was west of Groenenburg Farm, so the cemetery on McKerm's map cannot possibly be Groeneburg Friedhof / Waldfriedhof I.R. 126 ? Correct ? 3. Malte (posting # 9, with sketch) says the grave he is interested in is number 56, west of Groenenburg. You think it is an isolated Soldatengrab (Geländegrab). But since Groenenburg Cemetery as you think was west of the Farm, how can we be sure this Grave 56 was not in the cemetery? (Or maybe in 1915/16 it was concentrated in Groenenburg Cemetery ?) Sorry for asking these questions and being a nuisance. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McKerm Posted 22 July , 2005 Share Posted 22 July , 2005 This attachement shows in more detail the situation on Nov. 17th 1914. I thought about if the Cemetery Calvaire (south of Groenenburg) could be meant. But this place is too far eastern from the place on Malte's sketch. Might be that Jan is right with his assumption about the Geländegrab. But the information about the grave number is worth a second thought! Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frie Posted 22 July , 2005 Share Posted 22 July , 2005 Hello, There was also an ("Ehrenfriedhof") cemetery on the + Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malte Znaniecki Posted 22 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2005 Hi alltogether, Frank's sketch shows the position of III. Batallion/Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 79. This was the unit the man - buried in grave No.56 - belonged to as he fell on 17th November 1914. He was of 10th Coy. He fell anywhere in the area the sketch show. In January 1916 he was dugged off and buried again in the grave No. 56 and it seems to me that he was Soldier Nr. 52 who was buried on the cemetery during the days from 1st until 9th January 1916. The graveyard was also called "Lazarettfriedhof der 2. Sanitäts-Kompanie des Königlich Preußischen XV. Armeekorps". The graveyard must have been either a little bit west of the southern part of "Jäger-Wäldchen" or inside of it (then more on its western border). "Jäger-Wäldchen" is to see in better contur on my sketch and on Frank's first attachment. Perhaps they also called it "Waldfriedhof" as they did with the graveyard of the Inf.Regt.126 (330 meters north of Groenenburg). Is "Jäger-Wäldchen" another Name for "Calvaire-Wald"? Perhaps we don't know how close we are to some usable results. Please don't give up. Malte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 22 July , 2005 Share Posted 22 July , 2005 Frie, Do you happen to know the name ? Could it be that there were two cemeteries Calvaire, and that some time in the 1920s one was transferred to the other ? But I think that Jan can confirm this. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malte Znaniecki Posted 22 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2005 thank's frie during the years 1927 until 1929 I think the bodies of the soldiers were removed from the cemetery in or at southern "Jäger-Wäldchen" and came to "Ehrenfriedhof Nr. 80" at Kruiseke. From there they were removed again from 1955 until 1957 and were buried finally on Langemark German Cemetery. Lots of them thereby lost their identity and came into graves for unknown Soldiers ("Kameradengräber"). Malte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frie Posted 22 July , 2005 Share Posted 22 July , 2005 Aurel, There's no name. Found this cemetery on 2 maps : 1. Tageskarte "Gruppe" Wytschaete november 17, Its close (east) to a farm. 2. Artilleriekarte februar 1918 : Ehem. Friedhof.... / former cemetery But on this maps no sign of a cemetary near Groenenburg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malte Znaniecki Posted 22 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2005 I got the permission to place the full document in this forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malte Znaniecki Posted 22 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2005 22.7.05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 22 July , 2005 Share Posted 22 July , 2005 Aurel, There's no name. Found this cemetery on 2 maps : 1. Tageskarte "Gruppe" Wytschaete november 17, Its close (east) to a farm. 2. Artilleriekarte februar 1918 : Ehem. Friedhof.... / former cemetery But on this maps no sign of a cemetary near Groenenburg... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks, Frie (J) A week or so ago I studied the map in Ypres (IFFM Doc Centre), trying to find all the German cemeteries. I found over 30, but it looks like I must have missed the one in the Zillebekestraat. If you have the map yourself, could you let me know what square it is in (you know what I mean, a letter + number). (Actually the map I looked at was "Tageskarte Gruppe Wijtschate - bis 16.X.1917", but I suppose that doesn't make a difference ?) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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