Recruit allocation

[doogal]

Hi All,

Its Friday, so this is just a point I was thinking about in general:

I know that as the war progressed the distinction between Regular and other units lessened or "diluted", and also that these units did indeed attempt to retain their professional attitude, and in some cases very successfully.

But, to what extent, say in the recruiting offices and depots were recruits "spotted" for use in a regular unit - because of for example being extra fit, or just being more focussed or "with the right attitude".

And within this, how much recruiting went on behalf of the regular army on during the war in terms of trying to find good soldiers who might sign up as a regular soldier?

just for interest.

regards

doogal

[ian turner]

Interesting question, Doogal.

I can well believe there must have been recruits earmarked for the guards due to height requirements at least.

Would be interested to hear myslef on this one.

Ian

[Graham Stewart]

Hello there,

Good question but not easily answered and in my own opinion you would have to take each regiment individually and then do case studies. We all know what the battles of 1914 and early 1915 did to the regulars battalions, but some regiments would still have had a good number of Reservists(ex-regulars) and Special Reservists coming forward to fill in the gaps. By the end of 1915 we would see the strain begin to tell as these units strove to keep some resemblance of a regular battalion.

As an example on the 27th July 1915 the 15th(Reserve)Bn,Northumberland Fusiliers, which had up until April 1915 been a Service battalion of the regiment supplied drafts of 100 NCO's and men for the 1st Bn and the same number for the 2nd Bn. I would be surprised if any of the men sent had any previous military service, but some of the N.C.O.'s may have been old hands who had re-enlisted.

In itself 1915 was a bad year for voluntary recruitment, and this eventually saw the introduction of the National Service Act. If I remember rightly and hopefully I may have it in my archive, an order was issued to cease all recruitment to New Army battalions, and all future voluntary recruitment would be into the regular army and Territorials.

So as you can see the dilution of the regular battalions of the NF began in mid-1915, and I would think other units would be doing the same.

How many men were encouraged to stay on, heaven only knows, as many would have been heartily sick of the Army by 1918. It had been a conscript army since the introduction of the Military Services Act in 1916, although some would have signed up as regulars at the end.

As for the Guards, I believe as the war went on even they began to drop height restrictions.

Graham.

[Muerrisch]

The dilution of the regular battalions of RWF was almost instantaneous: the regiment's regular reservists and special reservists were committed by end 1914: 2429 men were sent to the front by year end, enough to use up both resources.

See my article ST! number 71.

I have no feel for the two RWF line battalions having any influence on the quality of subsequent reinforcements: quite the converse.

[Steven Broomfield]

By 1916, with the cross-posting of blokes all over the place, I can't see how it would work. The 56th Division is a case in point - men from all battalions being sent to the 'wrong' recipient battalion. I can't off-hand remember which battalion it was but I recall reading a note that they had spent days sending Rangers back to the 12th Bn, Jocks to the 14th, while trying to find men for their own battalion who had been mis-posted.

With that sort of shambles, I would have though selecting men for particular regiments must have been nigh on impossible. You got what the reinforcement camp sent.

[Muerrisch]

And subsequently tried to trade off for "your own lot". The only level at which some selection was consistently visible in 2 RWF was CO, Adj and 2 i/c, and even that produced some poor choices.

[doogal]

Hi All,

My thoughts wandered into this area for two reasons:

firstly, I recalled reading a diary of a soldier who was an artillery spotter in Salonika, and i remembered him saying that the officers, to quite a high level, were keen to recruit, even during the war. He was quite clear about this too, as they tried to recruit him. I recall the recruiting line sounded very familiar to the kind of appraoch that may be taken in peacetime - ie good career, see the world.

secondly, my gt grandfather, married with one child, was posted to the 2nd Duke of Wellington's (west riding) Regiment in late 1916, with no prior military experience. Of course, this probably had more to do with just filling the ranks, but as he got a medical billing of being in "excellent" physical shape, I wonder if things like this would have made a difference, or if for the sake of argment, as a result of this fitness, he handled basic training amongst some of the "better" soldiers, he may have found himself marked down for a regular battalion that wanted to try to maintain standards etc.

As I said, just Friday afternoon idle thoughts really.

thanks to all for responding.

regards

doogal

[cartoss]

When 12 Y&L were disbanded in erly 1918 the allocation of troops was as follows:

10 Feb 18 280 +13 officers to 7 Y&L

12 Feb 18 300+15 officers to 13 Y&L

12 Feb 18 34 +1 officers to 3 Gren Gds (listed as the transport)

14 Feb 18 19 ORs to 2/4 Y&L (listed as the band)

25 Feb 18 8 +1 officer to 7 Y&L

? Feb 18 7 officers to XIII crops rft camp, inc OC who returned to UK on 2 Mar 18.

To those who are not York & Lancaster Regt, 12th Y&L were known as Sheffield University and City Battalion. They were regarded as a bit posh to start with by other units in their brigade, especially 13 & 14 Y&L (Barnsley Pals). If you look at the Bn nominal Roll there is a fair sprinkling of units listed, probably as result of allocation following recovery from wounds.

Also had a Gt Uncle who went to 8 Argylls as a reenforcement in early Jul 1916. As far as we can tell he was not a pre-war teritorial. Dont know if this helps any.

[cartoss]

On a slightly differant angle, a newpaper advert for recruits to 12 Y&L. This seems to suggest that if you are going to war then go with own class. This is not meant in a disparaging way, just a comment on the class system of the time. I think they took 495 casualties on 1 July 1916 as one of the units assaulting Serre

[Graham Stewart]

Hello All,

Found this among my Army Council Instructions.

A.C.I.61 of 7th April 1915;-

"Ref para 5(1) of L. 121/4647(A.G.1), of 31st March 1915, a list of regiments to which men raised in large urban centres are to be posted should be sent each week to O.C. districts in each command. The latter officers will immediatley take steps to notify recruiting officers concerned".

"It is desired as time goes on to make urban recruiting less local and to gradually introduce the system of posting all recruits to any regiment where they are required". (L.27/Gen. No./4170, A.G.2B)

Still need to find that order to cease recruitment of New Army units.

Graham.

[cartoss]

Further to Graham's post. I have checked my copy of 12Y&L history and found details of drafts post 1 July 1916. 98 men on 15 Oct 16 originally intended for 1/6 North Staffs, 17 Oct 16 48 men from South Lancashire. On 27 Oct 31342 Pte RH Yelf man killed and 7 wounded by a shell, all are described as new arrivals. Yelf was originally Northants Regiment.

My take on it for what its worth is the army order Graham quotes may apply to New Army from the same time. My reason is New Army was under full control of the War Office, having been taken over after their formation by town councils etc in 1914.

I have not found dates of drafts to this Bn between 1 July and Mid October. I would have thought there must have been some, but in August the 12 Y&L formed a composite Bn with 11 East Lancs to occupy trenches at Neuve Chappelle.

[doogal]

Hi All,

An interesting addition in general terms, which really shows that much of what could decide a battalion for a soldier was the need for drafts is that I have discovered that my gt grandfather was posted to the 8th Duke of Wellington's regiment in late 1917. After a bit of to and fro as to whether he would actually go or not, he turned up in Etaples, and after a week was posted across to the 2/5th Dukes as a L/cpl.

So, a week in the 8th Dukes. 2/5th must have been in need of drafts to shift someone round that rapidly.

regards

doogal

[gporta]

So, a week in the 8th Dukes. 2/5th must have been in need of drafts to shift someone round that rapidly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This has some similarities with a draft of men I've been researching. They were posted to france in the last months of the war (just in time to take part in the "Last hundred days"). Looking at medal rolls, it seems that before the armistice these men (who seemingly were splitted in two groups) served consecutively in two different battalions: In both cases the first battalion is a regular one, the second battalion is, in one case a territorial unit, and in the other, a New Army one... Due to short time in which this happened, I wonder if they were not originally sent to France in order to reinforce the two regular battalions, but once the reached the base camps, eventually were sorted to the other units which might be in greater need of men. On the other hand, I know from battalion diaries that the brigades of one of these regular battalions and the new army one were in close touch nearly two months after the draft proceeded to France, so it could be also possible that these men served actually in both units (as mentioned in their medal roll fiches), and there was a transfer of manpower between units.

In the battalion orders of the unit originating the draft, orders regarding men are listed either under the title "territorials" or "regulars" (so seemingly the unit had a mixed extablishment). Which might be interesting for you is that these men in the draft who were posted to regular battalions in France, were listed as "Regulars", so they were probably already selected for this end? In the cases where I have been able to know the age, it was 19, so it is also interesting that these recruits were held until they had the official age to be sent overseas, as from reference it is known that it was not unusual that boys were sent to the front under this age (and I am not referring here to those cases of boys lying about their ages) due to the great need of manpower... I speculate (not knowing the age of ALL the components of the draft) that these guys, being meant to be posted to a regular battalion, were held until they were fully trained and with the right age... but then I'm still only wondering as haven't got yet all the data I'd like to have about the matter.

In this case we are talking about a late war example, so I am speaking just about a particular case of organization of units after the introduction of conscription.

hope this is of some interest,

Gloria

[doogal]

Hi Gloria,

many thanks for this - I have a question related to the orders -

you mention that

In the battalion orders of the unit originating the draft, orders regarding men are listed either under the title "territorials" or "regulars" (so seemingly the unit had a mixed extablishment). Which might be interesting for you is that these men in the draft who were posted to regular battalions in France, were listed as "Regulars", so they were probably already selected for this end?

Can you point me towards which part of a war diary/documentation this may be held? My first thought is that it would be the Adjutant's diary, but it would be great if I could track down the equivalent notes in relation to the Dukes.

regards

doogal

[Graham Stewart]

Doogal,

I know it's wrong to answer on behalf of other peoples posts, but the Battalion Orders mentioned in Glorias post to you, are either Battalion Part I Orders or Battalion Part II Orders. Either of them are extremely rare and I only know of a few sets in existence for the Northumberland Fusiliers, all of them being Part II Orders.

They are literally the day to day running of a Battalion as communicated to all ranks, a copy of which would be posted at the Guard Room/Drill Hall etc. In the Part II Orders that I have seen for the N.F., the drafting of troops to and from is well documented even down to the new regimental numbers and the company's they'd be posted too. Courses, ration strengths and all other manner of information, which a soldier needed to know would be found therein.

Graham.

[gporta]

Can you point me towards which part of a war diary/documentation this may be held?  My first thought is that it would be the Adjutant's diary, but it would be great if I could track down the equivalent notes in relation to the Dukes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Doogal,

Graham has already said it quite well (Thanks, Graham!). In this particular case I was referring to the battalion orders of a battalion which didn't leave the UK.

As mentioned by Graham, they are very, VERY detailed, and give full details of everything going on in the unit: Officers, NCOs and ORs going to/returning from training courses, leaves and furloughs, men joining or leaving the battalion, everyday duties, fatigues and drill, Changes in army regulations, incidences of any kind, record of pay rolls... etc. The names and regimental numbers of everyone mentioned are given, so it is great if you come across some surviving Battalion Orders related to the units you're interested. These BOs I mentioned are from a regiment not related to the ones you're interested, but I believe that it was an interseting example. In that case, these records were kept by a captain, who was the adjuntant of the battalion, as you thought

I understand that these types of orders are not easy to find, when it is possible to find any. In my particular case, someone was interested enough in them to leave them in an archive, where they were sleeping for ages. They were located by a friend of mine who is researching the story (I mean the whole story: it is indeed a towering load of work and he carries on with it splendidly) of the regiment where several of his relatives served. In his exhaustive research, he has of course reasearched/contacted a lot of archives. But he got the battalion orders by placing adverts in the local press of places in the UK where the different battalions had been stationed, and got a letter from a local archive (I believe it was a local lybrary), telling him that they had battalion orders covering a few months of 1918! (I know as I was researching a particular man in this unit and he contacted me with the excellent news that there were references relevant to my case... I admit that I've been very lucky at that! )

I don't know if you will be able to find Battalion Orders of the units you are researching, but it is not completely impossible a set of copies might be lying somewhere waiting to be found: In the shelves of a local archive or library, or in the attic of the Great-grandson of a battalion adjuntant... who knows?

Best,

Gloria

[Tony Lund]

But, to what extent, say in the recruiting offices and depots were recruits "spotted" for use in a regular unit - because of for example being extra fit, or just being more focussed or "with the right attitude".

In France and Belgium 1916 volume 1, referring to the regular 4th Division in June 1916, it states the division was “Brought up to strength with the finest of recruits, for the last time from the battalions own recruiting areas”

At a slightly lower level Holmfirth’s regular army Sergeant Hubert Moodycliffe of the 2nd Duke of Wellington’s in the 4th Division, wrote home and asked to be sent the names of the local men headed for his battalion. When the sergeant was killed on the 1/7/16 the Holmfirth men do seem to be in a group with him as if he had them sent to him on arrival at the battalion. Interestingly no Holmfirth men were killed serving with this battalion until the day the sergeant was killed.

The 2nd 5th Duke of Wellington’s were in action at Cambrai towards the back end of 1917 and will have needed a few new men at that time.

Tony.

[Graham Stewart]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

I have an interesting Army Council Instruction for you to digest regarding these posting's.

A.C.I.123 of 12th October 1914-Status of Special Reserves, New Armies and Regular Army;-

"From representatives made to the War Office it would appear that there is still some misapprehensions with regard to the status of the Special Reserve, and the new armies in process of formation, when compared with the regular army as it existed before war was declared."

"It is therefore explained that the New Armies, the reserve units and Special Reserve are, since mobilisation, to all intents and purposes, portions of the regular army."

"It is thus apparent that all soldiers, whether attested under the oridnary terms of service in the the force before mobilisation, or attested for the duration of the war under the conditions of Army Ordes 295 & 296 of 1914, are, during the period of embodiement, regular soldiers, and are therefore eligible for posting to any of the units of the corps to which they have been appointed, at the discretion of the competent military authority."

(L.27/Gen. No./2396, A.G.2B)

The terms "corps" means all regiments and not just artillery, engineers and so on.

Graham.

[Muerrisch]

Just so, and the post 4 Aug 1914 men signed attestation forms only slightly modified [the period] from the pre-war enlisted man.