A Provocative Observation

[egbert]

Thanx Kristof for contacting the MMP17 and Aurel of course for his provocative enlightment. Aurel confirms that the captions inside the IFF museum are also in German! So this can be the end of this thread indeed: in doing so I urge you to please check hereand last but not least here

and think whatever you like to think

[bob lembke]

Guys and Gals;

I had thought that this topic had long been beaten to death, even if there were no German captions in the museum.

It does reference the fascinating topic of nationalism in Belgium, which in several ways seems to impact WW I history. Many years ago I met a cute Belgian lady professor when we were both working in Slovenija, and she filled me in on this, but about the only thing I recall after decades is that in her town it seemed necessary to have both a Flemish and a Walloon (French-speaking) University; I think she was Walloon. This topic seemed to be the only thing she talked about.

I have noted that it seems to me like the only Belgiums interested in WW I are Flemish. (I might note that many of them are very advanced students of our common interest.) It also seems like the Germans in WW I had some hopes that the Flemish were sympathetic to their cause, and (from an allied source) some Flemish leaders, possibly a labor leader, given special priviliges by the Germans, such as relaxed rules on travel, used these privileges to advance espionage against the Germans.

I would think that a discussion of present-day nationalism in Belgium would be interesting but a bit too current for this Forum. But the question of how the nationalist differences in Belgium affected the course of the war might be another matter. However, I would not want to rekindle an ethnic war.

I have a number of letters from my grand-father, who was on the Generalkommando of III. Reserve Armeekorps attacking Antwerp. They are very interesting and even moving, showing him to be very sensitive, in contrast to his son, my father, who was a gleeful, happy storm trooper until the last month of the war. He wrote some amazing things, like: (From memory; I should really check this) "I am really worried about the 5th Division, it is almost out of ammunition." (He was the "Id", in charge of artillery and infantry ammunition to the 3rd Reserve Corps.) Would the Allies been happy to intercept that letter? Imagine sending such a piece of information to your schoolboy son.

Again I ramble on.

Bob Lembke

[Aurel Sercu]

Egbert,

True. I forgot. Sorry. Jan Dewilde indeed admitted that the IFFM website indeed is not in German. I don't know the reason. (Didn't ask him.) But the Museum itself is. And that was what it was about. And "thinking whatever you like to think" : I do not think that there is any anti-German resentment in the website not being in German (yet ?).

Bob,

It's not that discussing present-day nationalism and war-time nationalism in Flanders would be inappropriate on this Forum, but I'm afraid that this is slightly beyond my capacities. And even if it were within my capacities, this is such a complicated matter that nobody would understand.

Aurel

[bob lembke]

Bob,

It's not that discussing present-day nationalism and war-time nationalism in Flanders would be inappropriate on this Forum, but I'm afraid that this is slightly beyond my capacities. And even if it were within my capacities, this is such a complicated matter that nobody would understand. 

Aurel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aurel;

First of all, I would be the last person to try to start a discussion about sensitive present-day political issues. Recently, on another forum, I had a post of mine plucked from what I considered a WW I sub-forum and planted in a "Holocaust and War Crimes" sub-forum, which I had never even peeked into before, and from which I barely excaped with my life, being rather non PC, occasionally provocative, and liable to openly speak my mind. I think that Chris's recent reminder to avoid discussion of current political topics is very well-taken, although probably in reaction to the recent London tragedy. I feel that in out area, WW I, it is only in the last 15 years that real headway is being made in discovering what really happened in the Great War, being allowed by a cooling of nationalism and partisanship. Of course this ironically was allowed as the last participants were dying off.

Yes, I do understand that the question of Belgian nationalism (or "sub-nationalism") is very complicated, and has led to the creation of a very complicated political structure to balance all this. Sort of Lebanon without the car bombs. I suggest that this topic be avoided. Probably better pursued in a Brussels pub after the downing of a number of pints (or liters?) of the first-rate Belgian brews.

It reminds me of the famous quote about the German-Danish question in the 1860's, which some German diplomat (Bismark?) supposedly said: "There are only two people in the world who actually understand this issue, and the other one is totally insane!" Again from memory, so I don't vouch for every word, but quite a nice quip.

Bob Lembke

[Patrick @ IFF]

I just want to say that my username on this forum does not mean that I'm working for or expressing views on behalf of the IFFM. I'm merely the humble secretary of the Friends of the museum.

I've also been informed that staff working at the museum have followed a German language course in order to answer basic questions in German from non-English speaking visitors.

For information purposes only: in 2003, 2,4% of all visitors were from Germany.

[Gibbo]

It reminds me of the famous quote about the German-Danish question in the 1860's, which some German diplomat (Bismark?) supposedly said: "There are only two people in the world who actually understand this issue, and the other one is totally insane!" Again from memory, so I don't vouch for every word, but quite a nice quip.

Bob Lembke

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The version that I've heard is that Lord Palmerston said that only three people understood the Schleswig-Holstein question; himself who'd forgetten, Prince Albert who was dead & a Danish professor who'd gone mad thinking about it. Perhaps this was excluding Bismark or possibly the names have been changed in the English translation of a story originally attributed to Bismark, who undoubtedly understood the question.

[bob lembke]

Gibbo;

You are probably right. Either version of the quip is delicious.

Alas, the bon mot is largely dead. One can only look back with regret to the great comments and retorts of the past. For example, Gladstone and Disraeli in the Commons:

Gladstone: "Sir, I do believe that you shall end up either on the scaffold (i.e., the gallows), or dead of syphillis!"

Disraeli: "My dear sir, you are entirely correct. And the difference depends on whether I embrace your principles, or your mistress."

Case closed.

Bob Lembke

[Robert Dunlop]

To return to the Great War - Bob, your quote is an excellent example of Schlagfertigkeit, which, in the military context, refers to the ability to respond immediately to the enemy actions in such a way that you gain dominance.

Robert

[Paul Hederer]

To return to the Great War - Bob, your quote is an excellent example of Schlagfertigkeit, which, in the military context, refers to the ability to respond immediately to the enemy actions in such a way that you gain dominance.

Robert

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Churchill was the absolute master of this verbally. Even in his cups--I'm sure you're all familiar with the quote "...yes madam...but in the morning I will be sober..."

Paul

[bob lembke]

Paul;

Yes, it was the first killer riposte that came to my mind, but I put the other in, despite not knowing the author, as it was at least slightly related to military conflict. Wasn't the victim a Betsy Braddock?

Bob

[Paul Hederer]

Paul;

Yes, it was the first killer riposte that came to my mind, but I put the other in, despite not knowing the author, as it was at least slightly related to military conflict. Wasn't the victim a Betsy Braddock?

Bob

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bessie Braddock

Oi!

Paul

[Frank_East]

Bessie Braddock

Oi!

Paul

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Poor old Bessie.

WSC's comment was addressed to the first woman to take her seat in the House of Commons in 1919,Lady Nancy Astor.

Nancy Astor ran in the same social circles as WSC. The verbal exchange was merely a continuation of their "mutual admiration" for each other.

Had WSC addressed the comment to Bessie,then Bessie would have nobbled him.

Regards

Frank East

[Mark Hone]

Churchill had various verbal sparring sessions with Lady Astor but his '..I shall be sober' jibe is usually associated with Bessie Braddock. You may be confusing it with a vaguely similar exchange with Lady Astor:'Mr Churchill, If I were your wife, I'd poison your food' 'Madam, if I were your husband, I'd eat it!'

[bob lembke]

Churchill had various verbal sparring sessions with Lady Astor but his '..I shall be sober' jibe is usually associated with Bessie Braddock. You may be confusing it with a vaguely similar exchange with Lady Astor:'Mr Churchill, If I were your wife, I'd poison your food' 'Madam, if I were your husband, I'd eat it!'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that Mark has a direct hit. I saw the quote decades ago, and I remember that the account of the quip that I read went on at some length about Ms. Braddock, who was quite a different fish than Lady Astor, to say the least.

The tradition of such retorts is in sad repair in the US Congress; I suspect that it is in better shape in the Parliment. (One can consider with amusement the foolishness of the US senators who recently summoned MP Galloway to a Senate hearing, only to get a pant's full of verbal buckshot. They ended up muttering about inditing Galloway for "contempt of Congress", which, aside from being silly, would raise interesting questions of international law.)

I was quite amazed years ago to read a two column article in the NY Times about what must have been a wonderful quip in the US Senate, but the article refused to state what it actually was. We used to have a right-wing Senator from California, a Professor Hiakowa (sp?), a Japanese-American former professor of retoric. He had quite a mouth, as we say, and had a wonderful turn of phrase. One day he dozed off to sleep in the Senate. Senator Kennedy, who sat next to him, asked for the floor and stated that he, for one, did not want to be next to Senator Hiakowa, if he were sleeping. Hiakowa was waking up, heard this, asked for the floor, and, as the NY Times delicately put it, "made comments about Senator Kennedy's sleeping habits", but would not be more specific. I have a good friend who was an undercover MP (military police, not Member of Parliment) in Washington at that time, and a good friend of his was on Kennedy's staff, and was repeatedly dragged into Kennedy's "sleeping Habits", once borrowing my friend's Harley-Davidson to extricate the Senator from a motel and the grasp of what his staff delicately called "the Girl Scout pack". (I now actually have a fairly good opinion of Kennedy, if only in comparison with other nightmares going on in our capitol.)

I hope that was amusing; it was quite OT, but I think that the substance of the thread has been resolved.

Bob Lembke

[egbert]

My sincere congratulations for a job well done! This thread has been successfully hijacked.

[paul guthrie]

My sincere congratulations for a job well done! This thread has been successfully hijacked.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Twould be more delicate, Eggie, to say it has evolved. That is of course, like some in high office, you do not believe in evolution.

[egbert]

Can we go on to the IFF Apfelstrudel recipe and Zonnebeke Green Chili soup ?

[Chris Boonzaier]

British visitors only speak English, most of the French only speak French, Germans speak German but also English, and perhaps French.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know many Germans who are interested in the war that have very, very limited English or French skills.

[Frank_East]

Churchill had various verbal sparring sessions with Lady Astor but his '..I shall be sober' jibe is usually associated with Bessie Braddock. You may be confusing it with a vaguely similar exchange with Lady Astor:'Mr Churchill, If I were your wife, I'd poison your food' 'Madam, if I were your husband, I'd eat it!'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The WSC "poisoned food" quotation was thought to have been attributed to FE Smith,later the 1st Earl of Birkenhead,a close friend of WSC.However according to Vanderbilt Balsan's "The Glitter and the Gold",the exchange occurred at Blenheim Palace when the Churchills,the Astors were having a country weekend with WSC's cousin the Duke of Marlborough.Lady Astor and Churchill argued ferociously all weekend.Rather strange the tale is not confirmed in the British edition of Martin Gilbert's "In Search of Churchill" while in the US edition, it is.

There are many stories about WSC's drinking.These are being told and retold .The most popular has to do with a lady(in some versions,Lady Astor,in others, a Miss and Bessie Braddock)which has been referred to.The venue given is a party or in Parliament.The majority of information sources point to the exchange between WSC and Lady Astor and not Bessie Braddock.It is most likely that the exchange took place in the Cliveden Set social circles of the 1930s or the reported weekend at Blenheim.

Lady Astor's maiden speech in the House of Parliament was given on the basis of her extreme temperance views,namely the perils of drink.She obviously had WSC in her sights.Lady Astor tormented WSC in House as research will reveal. She served as an MP from 1919 until 1945.

On the other hand,Bessie Braddock took her place as an MP from 1945 until 1970.Not a person who would be found at the leading social circle parties so her involvement with the other side would be related to the comings and goings of the House.So why has Bessie Braddock been attributed to exchange?.One has to look at the way Bessie was reported in political circles.Her largness and her interpersonal traits drew attention from the mockers.Similar stories abound regarding Dennis the B of B in present times.

I notice that the drinking exchange between Lady Astor( not Bessie Braddock ) and WSC is reported in the full text of a speech recently given to the University of Washington by the Young Britons Foundation which appears to be is a quasi conservative organisation.It is reported in the text along with another as a "Sir Winston" classic tale.

The second one involves the nationalisation of WSC's manhood.I have heard the tale involving Atlee before which is the tale related to the University of Washington here.Other variations involve Bevin and a unrecorded Labour MP.

I can't see WSC's exchange with a lady regarding his state of repair involving anyone other than Lady Astor.He may have used the format to other people as he saw fit.

However I do remember seeing the account in a newspaper many years ago and the Lady was definitely Lady Astor.

To get back on course and an observation on German interest in the 20th Century European Wars.

In 1998 I met a young German about 35 years of age on a foggy November day roaming about on the Butte at Warlencourt.He was travelling back to Germany from his work in Normandy.He expressed dismay at the number of cemeteries in the area and had little awareness of what had gone off before.Then while we were on holiday in Bavaria we became friendly with a German lady whose father in law had fought in Alsace in the Great War. Knowing of our interest in the Great War,she showed us a scrapbook of her father in law's service in Alsace and the account of a revisit to the battlefield in 1981.I said to her,it should be of great interest to your son to be aware of his Grandfather's involvement in the Great War.She answered no, he has no interest whatsoever.One of items was an certificate issued by the local Gau to her late father in law in 1935 appointing him as an auxlliary frontier guard on the adjacent Czech border which I found interesting.A case of what we now refer to as "enpowering".

I think the lack of historical interest by the average German generally reflects Germany's experience in two World Wars.This is in contrast to the Russian view where apparently schoolchildren are given a 6 month "teach in"on the Great Patriotic War.

Regards

Frank East

[kerry]

Gut - koennen wir bitte alle jetzt endlich mit diesem immer langweilegeren Thema Schluß machen? Il'ya des autres sujets de plus import que l'inclusion de la langue allemande dans des notices in museums, sithee, begorrah, look you!

Fore example, could someone have a word with the Ypres Environmental Department about The Bluff? All very well having orientational signs in Flaams and Franglais - (but curiously not in German - I wonder if....(thats enough German! Ed.) but there's nothing to see thanks to the huge amounts of jungle foliage 50 feet high!

I was doing a recce last weekend for a future visit and as you all know, the Bluff fighting of Feb and March 1916 involved such gloriously Yorkshire regiments as the WYR, YR and DWR. They have even built a special path to take the visitor to the top of the Bluff, off the main path. But....

You jest cain't see a darn thing. The alleged plain-to-see craters forward of New Year Trench on Loop Trench are completely and utterly invisible thanks to the environmental considerations of wildlife refuges, beetle banks, seed banks and other devices the environmentally conscious use to nurture and maintain biodiversity.

Which means that The Bluff as a battlefield visit is a comprehensive non-starter. Standing at the end of that small path (foolish to do because standing still for longer than 0.333 seconds means the Sturmgeschader of tri-lingual mossies, gnats, and other winged insects then attack in swarms and droves, and my putting my hands up shouting 'Kamerad nicht schiessen!!" fell on deaf ears!) you cannot see a thing apart from a solid wall of impenetrable green that makes the Israeli Defence Wall on the West Bank look like a badly holed string vest by comparison.

So perhaps the good burghers in the Ypres Town Hall might have a rethink about this please?

And could some kind soul have a word with the businessmen expanding the Boesinge Business Park to kindly stop building on such hallowed ground as Skipton Road, Huddersfield Trench etc, and have the courtesy to deposit sub soil heaps that at least have something more interesting in them that WW1-vintage ring pull tops.

Vielen Dank, Au Revoir, tot seins, sayonara, aista la vista Baby etc etc.

Kerry

[Nathan Greenfield]

As long as we are trading Churchillian quips, here's one from the his 1943 visit to Canada:

When asked about whether he had noted any differences between his present visit to Niagara Falls and his 1900 visit he said "The principle seems to be much the same; the water still falls over."

And here's one from Balfour about WSC:

While reading Churchill's THE WORLD CRISIS, his history of the Great War, Balfour wrote "I am immersed in Winston's brilliant Autobiography, disguised as a history of the universe."

My source for both is THE GREAT DOMINION: WINSTON CHURCHILL IN CANADA 1900 -1954 by David Dilks. A great read.

[Patrick @ IFF]

My final contribution to this subject.

I've received an extensive answer from the IFFM-curator, Mr Piet Chielens. He was on holiday over the past fortnight.

- From the onset, the museum decided that all 4 major languages Dutch, French, English and German would be used. This concerns the display texts, interactive kiosks (14 in total) and personal history kiosks (German stories are indeed available), etc. etc.

- Whenever there is a major temporary exhibition, all texts are available in the 4 languages. Dutch and English texts are provided for smaller temporary exhibitions; French and German speaking visitors can pick up a guide. In the case of the above mentioned Rudolf Lange exhibition (German officer), English speaking visitors complained that texts where only in Dutch and German, but translations were on hand.

By the way, this exhibition will travel to Germany next year so as to kindle the interest of our German neighbours (town of Minden, his birthplace, and probably Münster as well).

- The translation of the website and the catalogues for the temporary exhibitions into German (or the other languages) has always been considered but this is a matter of a lot of money. Adaptation of the current website would cost about 25,000 euro. Translation of a single catalogue would cost about 12 to 15,000 euro.

(Current figures show that only 7 % of website visitors are French or from a French speaking country.)

I hope that everyone is now satisfied.

[egbert]

Thanx heaven we are back on thread!!!Thank you Patrick for your efforts and the explanations!!!