Keith Sloane Posted 6 July , 2005 Share Posted 6 July , 2005 I'm looking for a German Trench map covering the area North of Gravenstafel that falls within D2 & D3, and D9 & D10 This was the area in which the NZers fought in Oct 1917, battle of Broodseinde. Martin Marix Evans shows an area just east of this on page 97. I'm also after a present day road map of the area. Is this the place to enquire? First posting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 6 July , 2005 Share Posted 6 July , 2005 Welcome to the Forum Keith. I am not sure how much he has about German trench maps, but Dave (Croonaert's) Paths of Glory web site has become an semi-offical trench map resource. Check out this link to see what he has. I am sure he will also post to this thread. Andy Paths of Glory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 6 July , 2005 Share Posted 6 July , 2005 Here you go, Keith. Passchendaele is top-right. My Grandfather fought with the NZ Machine Gun Corps in this battle. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 6 July , 2005 Share Posted 6 July , 2005 not much on German maps. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Unfortunately, I've only got a couple of German trench-maps and none for this area. I do have the German maps CD-ROM, but copyright issues prevent me from using any of these on my website (they're not as clear as the British Trenchmaps anyway!!!). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 6 July , 2005 Share Posted 6 July , 2005 I'm also after a present day road map of the area. Is this the place to enquire? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Certainly is! Here you are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 7 July , 2005 Share Posted 7 July , 2005 Keith, the map does not have a legend. I think they represent locations of bunkers and the like. The dots often occur along lines, with sequential numbering along the line. They are definitely not markers for high points. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Sloane Posted 7 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 7 July , 2005 Robert, Bunkers or strongpoints would be my guess. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 7 July , 2005 Share Posted 7 July , 2005 Keith, the map does not have a legend. I think they represent locations of bunkers and the like. The dots often occur along lines, with sequential numbering along the line. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree. The map is a "Stellungskarte" showing fortifications, etc (Stellungskarte Ieperen, Blatt XXII, 6 Okt.1917). Comparing it with similarly detailed British maps (and to coin the phrase used in the conventional signs on the Brit.map), the numbers seem to represent "Dug-outs", some of which are "Reinforced by Concrete". This can encompass , along with major dugouts, MG posts, concrete shelters, artillery and infantry bunkers, etc. etc. Some of the numbers shown on the German map can encompass several individual "dugouts" (so where there's one number, there might be several dugouts in the immediate vicinity). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 8 July , 2005 Share Posted 8 July , 2005 Dave, I've seen those numbers on German maps before, and I've always thought (perhaps mistakenly) that they were known registered target points for artillery fire (to include positions on the friendly side for SOS barrages and the like). I see a few of them fall on crossroads and they seem to be sequential one-up numbers. I've seen targets referenced by numbers like this in fire preparation orders... Do the numbers occur on both sides of the lines? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 8 July , 2005 Share Posted 8 July , 2005 Paul. The numbers do occur on both sides of the line. I believe this reflects the fact that the map indicates all of the Stellungen that existed prior to the British offensive. Thus numbered points on the British side of the line would be captured bunkers, etc. Very handy information for the gunners. From most artillery maps that I have seen, targets are marked with hatched areas rather than single points. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 8 July , 2005 Share Posted 8 July , 2005 Robert, I'll take a look on my maps next week (on the go today and this weekend). I know the German maps I have of the Verdun area have these types of numbers and I've seen them referenced in written descriptions also as a reference. You may be correct, but I haven't seen any hatched areas, but bunkers, crossroads, and point targets marked by one up sequential numbers. My father-in-law was a German forward artillery observer, I wish he was still around to ask. This is an interesting topic Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 8 July , 2005 Share Posted 8 July , 2005 Hello, The numbers indicate known points indeed. According to the position in own lines etc. they were called red ponts, green points, blue points etc... Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 8 July , 2005 Share Posted 8 July , 2005 Attached is a German artillery map. It shows the dispositions of various British batteries as well as the patterns of harrassing fire (Störungsfeuer) and locations of captive balloons (only the German balloons appear in the area I have copied). Very interesting to hear about your Father-in-law, Paul. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 8 July , 2005 Share Posted 8 July , 2005 Comparing it with similarly detailed British maps (and to coin the phrase used in the conventional signs on the Brit.map), the numbers seem to represent "Dug-outs", some of which are "Reinforced by Concrete". etc. etc.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> As a comparison, here's a section from a british map showing similarly numbered positions. If you could look at a lower part of the map that Robert posted , you would see that quite a few of these numbered positions are in the same place on both maps. dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 9 July , 2005 Share Posted 9 July , 2005 This is all very interesting. Sure makes it productive with the ability to attach examples (I love the internet). I've made a suggestion to the forum moderators to open up a "maps and the war," or some such named section, so these valuable discussions are not spread about the forum. I'll try and post some things next week (on the go this weekend). Jan, you mentioned the points. Would they be referenced in that way in communications also? Robert, just so there is no confusion he was an artillery observer in WWII not WWI, I should have been more specific. We still have all his plotting instruments in their original cases--interesting stuff. There is a site online where you can download a few British artillery maps (though you guys may have already seen them). Go to www.gutenberg-e.org and sign up for the free trial and look at "The Infantry cannot do with a gun less," really worth reading and you can download the whole document. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 9 July , 2005 Share Posted 9 July , 2005 Dave; Would you mind to briefly mention what the German map CD is, how many maps, availability, etc. Just visited your site, very interesting. When I get my feet in this Forum I will probably PM you about possible maps for a book I am writing. Anything like this for the French? Guys; My particular area of information, resources, insight is the German Army 1914-1918. I am sure that there are a number of you that also know a lot about that area (I just noticed a post from Jan V. who is an exceptional authority), but most of you seem to be focused on the UK. I will try to be helpful to you guys in the areas where I "have a leg up" in case you have needs in that area. Bob Lembke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 10 July , 2005 Share Posted 10 July , 2005 Bob, the German trench map CD is published by Naval and Military Press. Check out the 'CD ROMs' button at the top of their home page for further details: http://www.naval-military-press.co.uk/ It contains several captured German trench maps covering many of the sectors occupied by the British, with a small number from other parts of the Western Front. The CD includes software that allows you to zoom right in on any area of a map, though this tool does cause some slight blurring of the image at most magnifications. There are various types of map, including examples that focus specifically on trenches, artillery positions, observation posts with line-of-sight, or transport routes. Coverage of the fronts and of various time periods is very uneven. It may be better for you to check whether areas of specific interest are covered before you buy. Just let us know. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PROCONSUL Posted 19 July , 2005 Share Posted 19 July , 2005 "There is a site online where you can download a few British artillery maps (though you guys may have already seen them). Go to www.gutenberg-e.org and sign up for the free trial and look at "The Infantry cannot do with a gun less," really worth reading and you can download the whole document." Paul/quote Paul, Many thanks and also plaudits. A very good recommendation and a good read too. Tim of the Antipodes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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