1917 artillery spotting aircraft RFC

[tamos123]

Hi All

What type of aircraft would a wireless operator on artillery spotting duties have flown in, specifically 5th Sqn RFC in mid 1917?

thank you

T

[Adrian Roberts]

Almost certainly an RAF (Royal Aircraft Factory) RE8.

Just possibly he may have still been flying in the BE2d or BE2e which the RE8 was replacing

Tamos: I'm into ships as well: what ship is your avatar?

Adrian

[tamos123]

thanks Adrian my war in the air knowledge is limited

Another avenue of research opens up........

Its HMS Cochrane

T

[Old Tom]

Hello,

I would like to know more about the wireless operator. My recent reading about the RFC and the Corps (army co-operation) squadrons indicates that that the chap in the second seat was called an observor but that the pilot, because he was better placed to position the aircraft for spotting the fall of shot actually communicated with the battery. By morse and using a clock code to indicate the fall of shot inrelation to the target. The observer seems to have been the rear gunner. The aircraft carried a Lewis on a Scarff mounting for the chap in the rear seat. I don't think any intercomm was fitted and there was too much noise for any verbal conversation.

Regards, Old Tom

[Adrian Roberts]

Old Tom

An interesting one this. I had always assumed that it would have been too difficult for a pilot to use Morse code while flying the machine. But in Peter Cooksley's "The Air VCs", the section on Freddie West VC describes a flight earlier in his career when he was flying as an observer, and records the pilot as sending the Morse code.

Richard Bell Davies VC (later Vice Admiral) describes spotting at Gallipoli, but the only, rather ambiguous, clue he gives about who did what is: "I signalled 'cease fire'.....My observer....was a good telegraphist but with little experience of spotting. I was doing the spotting myself therefore..."

Can you quote any actual passages from the books you have read? I can see the point that the pilot was best placed to position the aircraft, and that communication between crew members was difficult.

But observers were flying before aeroplanes had machine guns, in the first months of the war: they must have had a definite role. And many observers in aircraft used for artillery spotting were artillery officers on secondment.

In the German aviation service, the commander of the aircraft was the observer; the pilot was merely his chauffeur (this also was the case in large bombers such as the HE111 in the early part of WW2) - so some degree of communication must have been possible in WW1 aircraft.

Adrian

[Dolphin]

As I understand it, the RFC originally envisaged that (as was the case with the Germans) the pilot of an aeroplane would do the flying, while the observer did the observing. In the early years of the War the observation task was shared by both members of the crew, but this changed when it was realised that the pilot was best able to keep a target in view while the aeroplane moved around the sky. However, the pilot wasn't able to keep watch for other aircraft, both enemy and friendly, while he was noting the fall of artillery shells and signalling back to the firing battery.

Hence, by late 1917, the observer's task had been refined to keeping a vital eye out for enemy aircraft and manning the Lewis gun(s). The observer was also expected to know the section of the front on which his unit was operating, so as to notice any significant changes on the enemy side of the lines. On photographic missions, the observer had the difficult task of replacing the boxes of glass plates that fed the camera. On return to the home airfield, the observer was responsible for handing the glass plates to the squadron's Photographic Section while the pilot reported to the Intelligence Officer.

Gareth

[Adrian Roberts]

Gareth

So did the pilots have to learn morse code? Or did they use a simplified system? To become proficient in Morse must have taken longer than learning to fly!

Adrian

[Dolphin]

Adrian

I'm pretty sure that the Morse code was one of the elements taught at a School of Military Aeronautics before a would-be flier moved on to flying training. No doubt for many pilots, especially those assigned to Scout squadrons, it was a knowledge that became a distant memory very quickly.

Regards

Gareth

[Dolphin]

Adrian

I'm pretty sure that the Morse code was one of the elements taught at a School of Military Aeronautics before a would-be flier moved on to flying training.  No doubt for many pilots, especially those assigned to Scout squadrons, it was a knowledge that became a distant memory very quickly.

Regards

Gareth

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Adrian

Further to my earlier post, I've been looking for something to back up my thoughts. In William Lambert DFC's Combat Report, he says of his time at No 4 School of Military Aeronautics in Toronto, Canada: ". . . we reported back to the university for another week of primary training in hygiene, discipline, foot drill, telegraphy and general RFC duties . . ."

Cheers

Gareth

[Spud Trevor]

Hello,

I've followed the thread with interest and wondered about the chap on the ground receiving the signals.

I've been looking at a F Pearmain, who the CWGC record as an Airman 1st Class 6th Sqdn., RFC, attd. 186th Bty, RGA. He died on 03/06/1917, but I'm not sure how (The relevant volume of the Cross of Sacrifce does not record).

What I'm wondering is, would a RFC chap attached to the RGA be the link between the spotting aircraft and the artillery battery ? Any thoughts ?

Regards,

Spud

[tamos123]

Hi All

Reason I asked the question was because I have recently purchased a medal pair with a description that the airman 2AM qualified as a Wireless Operator and served with 8 Sqn, 186 Brig RFA, 9th Div Artillery, 3 Sqn, 35 Sqn and 5 Sqn on Artillery spotting duty

Please keep the thoughts and comments coming

T

[Dolphin]

What I'm wondering is, would a RFC chap attached to the RGA be the link between the spotting aircraft and the artillery battery ? Any thoughts ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spud

Specialist RFC men were posted to artillery batteries to operate the receiver for the Sterling radio transmitter carried on the aeroplane assigned to direct the battery's fire. This aspect of the RFC's role hasn't been particularly well covered in print, but there is a section on it in Nigel Steel and Peter Hart's 1997 book Tumult in the Clouds; ISBN 0 340 63846 X.

I hope this helps.

Gareth

[tamos123]

thanks Guys

What's the best way to research a particular Squadron's actvities...do they have war diaries the same as Battalions

The medals arrived today..v nice and the supporting records indicate it was 8th Sqn RFC he was with

many thanks

T

[Spud Trevor]

Gareth,

Thanks very much for the pointer to the book, I'll keep an eye open for it.

Regards,

Spud

[truthergw]

Gareth

So did the pilots have to learn morse code? Or did they use a simplified system? To become proficient in Morse must have taken longer than learning to fly!

Adrian

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Daily practice and a nice sergeant to ' encourage ' you and it's surprising how quick you can get up to speed.

[essdee]

The following image is taken from a series of combat reports. These reports appear to have been written whenever an aircraft was attacked or attacked A.E. The 'duty' on the right varies in these reports from spotting, photography, artillery observation etc.

If you go to the NA web sight and type in 5 squadron RFA, 12 squadren RFA etc you'll find it. These reports are digitised so you can download them.

I can't remember any for 5 Squadron, but then I wasn't looking.

By the way, in one report I read the pilot tells how he was attacked from behind and shouted at the obsever to duck down. Several rounds passed his right elbow and on checking the observer sat in front of him found he had been shot in the back of the head.

So on this particular plane the observer was up front

Stuart

[essdee]

This is the other half of the report.

By the way if you look them up online just put in 5 Squadron, omit RFA.

Stuart

[Guest geoff501]

There is not too much technical stuff on this posted and I don't know what is available, but the attached Air Ministry scan may be of interest to some (forgive me if it's already known). It shows the RAF wireless network at the time of the armistice. Taken from Wireless and Telephony Broadcasting, 1923. There are a couple of maps in the book showing wireless and gun positions at Messines 1918 and at the line north of Arras in August 1918. I can post here if there is any interest. At the time of the armistice, the book mentions 600 aeroplanes fitted with radio working in conjunction with 1000 ground stations!

[Adrian Roberts]

If you go to the NA web sight

Stuart

Can you clarify the address of this website? It looks useful

Thanks

Adrian

[essdee]

Adrian

Thanks for pointing out I spelt website wrong.

THe NA site I refer to is the National Archive at Kew, it used to be online as PROCAT.

Go to... www.catalogue.nationalarchive.gov.uk/search.

If you type in e.g. 5 squadron and a covering date (1914-1918) you'll get the following:-

AIR 1/43/15/9/15 R.N.A.S. 5 Squadron 1917 Feb.-1918 Mar.

AIR 1/166/15/144/1 History of 5 Squadron, R.A.F. 1914-1918. 1919 Apr. 21

AIR 1/661/17/122/660 Report of bombing raid by 5 Squadron R.N.A.S. 1918 Feb. 3

AIR 1/661/17/122/661 Report of bombing raid by 5 Squadron R.N.A.S. 1918 Jan. 30

AIR 1/662/17/122/662 Report of bombing raid by 5 Squadron R.N.A.S. 1918 Jan. 29

AIR 1/687/21/20/5 History of 5 Squadron, R.A.F. 1913-1928

AIR 1/719/33/2/1 Notes on 5 Squadron, R.F.C. 1913-1914

AIR 1/762/204/4/163 Mileage flown by 2, 3, 4 and 5 Squadrons, R.F.C. 1914 Aug. - Sept.

AIR 1/773/204/4/346 Practice mobilization: 5 Squadron. 1913 Oct. - 1914 July

AIR 1/775/204/4/378 Roll of officers: 2, 3, 4 and 5 Squadrons, also Headquarters Squadron with B.E. Force. 1914 Sept.

AIR 1/786/204/4/568 Accommodation of 5 Squadron at Fort Grange, Gosport. 1914 June - July

AIR 1/787/204/4/607 Safety flying in Sopwith aeroplanes, 5 Squadron. 1914 Jan. - May

AIR 1/792/204/4/751 Transfer of air mechanics from 7 to 5 Squadron. 1915 Apr.

AIR 1/795/204/4/915 Distribution of M.T. personnel at war strength, 5 Squadron. 1914 Mar.

AIR 1/800/204/4/1078 Record of work: 4 and 5 Squadrons. 1914 July

AIR 1/827/204/5/164 List of officers: 2, 3, 4 and 5 Squadrons. 1914 Oct.

AIR 1/1035/204/5/1444 Transfer of 5 Squadron to England. 1919 Sept.

AIR 1/1217/204/5/2634 Combat reports: 5 Squadron 1915 Apr-1918 Sept

Some of the above are digitised and be downloaded, the combat reports I looked at covered a period of say Jan17 to June 17 and had about 8 reports per period. I would guess these are just a representation of RFA combat reports for the war, as you would expect there to be many more.

If you type in any squadron No. you'll get very similar info for each.

I hope its of use

Stuart

[Guest Diccon]

Looking at Ira Jones' "Tiger Squadron" he says that in 1915, as an Air Mechanic, he had the job of fitting wireles transmitters to BE 2Cs of 10 Sqn. Subsequently he writes

"The artillery spotting plane was fitted with a battery-powered, spark type transmitter, operated by a buzzer type key fixed on the right hand side of the observer's cockpit."

The observer occupied the front cockpit and at this period the BE 2 carried only small arms. As an Air Mechanic Jones served both with an artillery battery and as an observer. He states that the latter was unusual. Before enlisting he was a trained telegraphist.

Richard

In memory of my grandfather 30883 Cpl. Sydney Law D Coy 2 KOYLI KIA 14 April 1917 at Fayet. Commemorated at Thiepval

[Dolphin]

Richard

I think what Jones said is consistent with earlier posts: in the early years of the War, spotting for the guns was a task shared between pilots and observers, but as the air became more crowded it evolved into the pilots' responsibility, while the observer was occupied in keeping watch for enemy aircraft and generally 'looking around'.

I've often thought that 'Taffy' Jones' death was extremely ironic. The aggressive Welshman with a DSO, DFC and bar, and MM, who faced Germans and Bolsheviks in the air (including attacking a Ju 88 with a flare pistol while flying an unarmed Hawker Henley target tug in 1940) met his end after falling off a ladder.

Gareth

[Old Tom]

Hello, In particular Adrian.

Sorry to be slow in answering question. I don’t have the books, but my notes on the subject are as follows, The numbers in brackets identify the book and the page. The books are noted at the end. It looks as if the practices changed as experience was acquired. I have not yet found if aircraft carried two way radio by 1918.

BEF first used ac to find targets for arty in Sep 14 on the Aisne. Pilots and observers did not direct the guns merely acting as advisors. (7.101) Ac had been fitted with wireless in 1912 and 13 but the set took the place of the observer and the task of flying and operating the set was too great. From Feb 15 a wireless flight was part of each squadron but the two way set weighed 75 lbs and took up the observer’s seat. Gridded maps were not available at first but were drawn up for 1 Corps for 1st Ypres and at Neuve Chapelle a disc with angles and distance circles was used to pass aiming corrections (7.102)

The transmitter carried in early 1915 was so bulky that there was no room for an observer and for a receiver (13.27)

The procedure for arty spotting was for the observer to speak, by telephone, to the battery to confirm targets, check map co-ordinates on large scale squared maps and agree time of first shot. After take off the observer let out the trailing aerial and called the battery in Morse. The battery acknowledged by putting out coloured strips and the observer called for the battery to fire. There was a lack of standardisation and only 1 Sqn evolved a method of a standard form of message ‘I see a good target at ref please engage (25.85).

The observers task had originally been considered the most important, the pilot merely the driver. In the German air force the observer initially was a captain and the pilot an NCO. In time it was found that the pilot was better able to position himself for watching the fall of shot or taking photos. Over the years the observer became a glorified look out and gunner (26.126)

7. Fire Power, Weapons and Theories of War 04/45 Bidwell & Graham George

13. Surviving Trench Warfare, Technology and the Canadian

Corps 1914 - 1918 Bill Rawling

25 The RFC in France, Mons to the Somme Ralph Barker

26 The RFC in France, Bloody April to Final Victory Ralph Barker

Old Tom

[essdee]

Here's an observed shoot I found in 18 Corps HA diary from July 18.

From what I've read the "L" is the signal confirming the battery the plane was to service, the "G" is the signal for the battery to fire. The FFE is I would think "fire for effect". The final signal V is the signal that they are on or very near and can't be improved and orders gunfire i.e. the whole battery lets loose.

If anyone knows or has a list of these signals I would be interested to see it.

Stuart

[Adrian Roberts]

Old Tom & Stuart

Thanks for these examples. There was clearly a steep learning curve between the coloured strips of 1915 and the sophisticated procedure of the July 1918 example.

Is it clear when it became possible to carry an observer as well as a W/T set?

I still think it can't have been easy flying and sending Morse at the same time. I know modern combat pilots are supposed to have a heavy workload, operating computers, radar, IR etc while flying, but at least they don't have to also think about mixture controls, hand oil pumps, etc while being bounced around with every air pocket and shell burst.

As to two-way wireless, I know the wireless experimental establishment at Biggin Hill was experimenting with this in 1918 but I don't think it had entered service by the war's end.

Adrian