Battlefield clearance

[roel22]

Does anybody know how thorough the battlefields around Ypres have been cleared after the armistice, with over a 150.000 men still missing. Has there been an active search, also looking for mass-graves, fieldgraves, or was it mostly a matter of collecting bodies that were still lying around on the former battlefields ?

regards

Roel

[bkristof]

Dear Roel,

don't forget that a lot of those missing DO have a grave...

All those "Know unto God" graves are missing soldiers too!

[Captain Dave]

Reading through the book 'The Living Unknown Soldier', it described the mammoth postwar efforts to clear and reinter the dead, right up until 1939. As stated, there are the known unto God graves, but there was (for the first time) a signifficant proportion of those reported as missing who were simply destroyed by the process of industrial warfare.

I think the people doing the job of clearance post war did the best they could in an unenviable situation. There were also many relatives that hounded Regiments and Governments both during and after the war demanding to know when the body of their loved one would be returned to them. In many cases they had no idea of the appaling conditions that were faced by those trying to recover or identify the remains.

The Western Front will continue to deliver up it's dead for some time to come.

[roel22]

don't forget that a lot of those missing DO have a grave...

All those "Know unto God" graves are missing soldiers too!

i know...but if you exclude the 'knowns unto gods' and the 'unbekannter' on the cemeteries there's still about 100.000 missing today...

[bkristof]

I can't belive there are still 100 000 missing in the salient whitout a grave, only commonwealth...

let's say 10 000 that is possible.

Do you have some sort of stats?

MIA name list - CWGC "known unto god" graves = ???

[Aurel Sercu]

Kristof,

These are some statistical data, for Belgium, from 1988.

And for both WW1 and 2.

Belgium 204.810 fallen CWGC men

WW1 : 194.718 (among them approx. 175.000 Ypres Salient)

WW2 : 10.092

Of these 204.810 :

- known grave : 102.456 (= 50%)

- missing : 102.354 names on the Missing memorials.

Of these : 48.491 have a grave Known unto God (47,3%).

The rest only have a name on the Memorial. (This is more than 50% (for all of Belgium and both wars, but the proportion must be approx. the same for Ypres WW1.)

I really believe there are more than 10.000 (for the British alone) missing in the Salient, i.e. without a grave.

Even without knowing the above mentioned numbers, the calculation can be made easily.

There are almost 100,000 names on the Memorials to the Missing (Menin Gate 55,000 Tyne Cot 35,000, and Ploegsteert (though Ploegsteert is also for the north of France).

There are 45.000 or so headstones 'A soldier of the Great War Known unto God' in the Salient.

So : the same number must be still somewhere out there in the fields... Aand let's not forget the Germans, and the French...)

Aurel

[john w.]

Aurel.. you and your stats... dont worry I believe you wholeheatedly...

Many many missing

Not forgetting all the ordnance even after all these years

John

[bkristof]

Kristof,

These are some statistical data, for Belgium, from 1988.

And for both WW1 and 2.

Belgium 204.810 fallen CWGC men

WW1 : 194.718 (among them approx. 175.000 Ypres Salient)

WW2 : 10.092

Of these 204.810 :

- known grave : 102.456 (= 50%)

- missing : 102.354 names on the Missing memorials.

Of these : 48.491 have a grave Known unto God (47,3%).

The rest only have a name on the Memorial. (This is more than 50% (for all of Belgium and both wars, but the proportion must be approx. the same for Ypres WW1.)

I really believe there are more than 10.000 (for the British alone) missing in the Salient, i.e. without a grave.

Even without knowing the above mentioned numbers, the calculation can be made easily.

There are almost 100,000 names on the Memorials to the Missing (Menin Gate 55,000 Tyne Cot 35,000, and Ploegsteert (though Ploegsteert is also for the north of France).

There are 45.000 or so headstones 'A soldier of the Great War Known unto God' in the Salient.

So : the same number must be still somewhere out there in the fields... Aand let's not forget the Germans, and the French...)

Aurel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I fully agree Aurel, the numbers proof it. But it is only 1/3 of that 150 000.

[Aurel Sercu]

Kristof,

Yes, one third of the 150,000. But the figures I gave are only for CWGC. If we take it that there may be an equal number for German and French troops, I think we can double the 50,000.

Aurel

[roel22]

...Making it around 100.000 missing for the Salient alone.

I fully agree, Aurel!

I just wonder how active the search has been. Was it, due to the overwhelming numbers, mostly a matter of looking for visible bodies/remains, and marked (field)graves? Or has there over the years also been a search for cemeteries and mass-graves that had been lost, for whatever reason? Or battlefield-excavations; In more than enough cases it didn't take much research to know that certain pieces of land would be full of missing soldiers.

Roel

[Aurel Sercu]

Roel,

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to your question. But I would be extremely interested in hearing it from someone else.

Aurel

[mcderms]

There are a lot of lost graves on the Western Front... Eight? Lincolns turned up in one a couple of years ago. I also have seen numerous photos of graves in and around trenches early in the war - many dead were buried in no mans land during the 1914 Xmas truce. Now when the war rolls on these were all destroyed or lost.

We also know that hundreds? were buried in mass graves at Hill 60 and Hill 62 (nearest CWGC is another battlefield graveyard) but with few details, these are not official 'Unknowns' looked after by the CWGC.

I guess the simple answer is that when you add in the French, German, US and Belgian missing there must be upwards of 250,000 bodies still out there somewhere, whole or in parts.

Every year >100 are revealed by archeaologists, farmers, builders etc. The best we can do is give them a decent re-burial. I'm not sure what we'd gain from actually going out & looking for casualties?!

There's also another interesting thread on the forum about an Aussie mass grave in Flanders... Eye witness accounts, archeaology and the owner of the land all agree that >100 men are buried in what were shell holes in a field but the Oz govt has ducked confirming this as it would consume all their available resources for the next X? years...

[Fabiansson]

If the area fought over is appr. 150 square kilometres, we then must except 667 bodies in each front square kilometre (given that the missing are evenly distributed so to speak), or 6,7 bodies per each 10 x 10 meter area in the battlezone?? That would give a 1:14 chance of finding a body in any dug 100 x 100 centimeter hole in the battle zone...

[Max]

If the area fought over is appr. 150 square kilometres, we then must except 667 bodies in each front square kilometre (given that the missing are evenly distributed so to speak), or 6,7 bodies per each 10 x 10 meter area in the battlezone?? That would give a 1:14 chance of finding a body in any dug 100 x 100 centimeter hole in the battle zone...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unfortunately, this does not take into consideration those that are lost in the very real term, i.e. hit by shells with the body being completely obliterated or thrown to the wind by continuous shelling after their deaths.

Andy

[Bert Heyvaert]

To come back to the original posting, can I suggest Philippe Longworth's 'unending Vigil', the official history of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, in which the clearing of the battlefields is well described. Bodies were collected were they could be seen on the surface, but everything underneath, off course, stayed were it was if not marked. In any case, the search parties noted the grid references down of the places where they found bodies, so theoretically, with this information it should be possible to make a study and identify the areas where heavy fighting occured, but where relatively few bodies were found. An interesting study but a work of years. Maybe good PhD material if someone's interested

Battlefield clearing was done by labour companies whose men later merged into the war garves commission or were send back to civil life (the majority). None of them seems to have talked about it much, I only remember one story about a Britsih gardener living in ieper who found the bodies of some of his battalion members at The Bluff in the 1920's. Working in the neighbourhood for the IWGC they were called upon to exhume the discovered remains. But by than the official battlefield clearance was allready over off course.

Bert

[roel22]

this is definetely the book I'm looking for!

Many thanks, Bert! The book is already on its way

and ofcourse an equal thank you to all the others who replied!

best regards

Roel

[salientguide]

Some years ago I remember reading the obituary of the Officer who had been given the overall task of searching all battlefields for the recovery of remains. Cant recall his name now, anyone know?? This work was the responsibility of the Army whilst the IWGC as it was then built and developed the cemetaries. Each battlefield was divided into gridded squares, and each square was searched several times. Obvious marked graves were easy to find but the remainder of the work was probably carried out with probing rods, a burial being softer than surrounding soil. But very haphazard. - the miracle is probably how many remains were recovered in those situations for honoured burial rather than surprise at how many wern't. SG

[chrislock]

Im afraid the idea of missing soldiers, laying as imagined, under the battlefield is now mostly a myth! We visited a friend, who lives on the Messines Ridge last weekend. Well, we took a stroll across his land near IRISH HOUSE CEMETRY. Amongst the potatoes and maize, he showed us several areas of strewn human remains. Ribs, femurs, tib, feb etc. He used to plough them up regulary, but not so much anymore! How many has he ploughed up? He doesnt know! The plough takes no prisoners and the deed is done! He said it is not malicious, but when you live with this all your life and have to make a living, you might understand! A MOST SOBER WALK TO SAY THE LEAST!

[Marco]

The Bluff in the 1920's. Working in the neighbourhood for the IWGC they were called upon to exhume the discovered remains. But by than the official battlefield clearance was allready over off course.

Wasn't the last official one in 1932?

Regards,

Marco

[ian turner]

Im afraid the idea of missing soldiers, laying as imagined, under the battlefield is now mostly a myth! We visited a friend, who lives on the Messines Ridge last weekend. Well, we took a stroll across his land near IRISH HOUSE CEMETRY. Amongst the potatoes and maize, he showed us several areas of strewn human remains. Ribs, femurs, tib, feb etc. He used to plough them up regulary, but not so much anymore! How many has he ploughed up? He doesnt know! The plough takes no prisoners and the deed is done! He said it is not malicious, but when you live with this all your life and have to make a living, you might understand! A MOST SOBER WALK TO SAY THE LEAST!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chris,

Maybe I spoke to the same chap! Anyway, a Belgian friend of mine, in the same region, explained that on the frequent occasions when farmers uncovered human remains, they simply ploughed them back into the field. The reason being that to report the discovery meant holding back on the rest of the ploughing for some days whilst the experts came and checked for more, and removed and ID'd the casualty. The farmer could not afford the interruption.

I do not say that is true of all Belgian farmers, heaven forbid, but I am sure that is the fate of many 'no known graves' - probably in many other parts of the world too.

Ian

[roel22]

I met Belgian farmers who even told me they throw away human remains with their garbage. Because reporting them to the authorities is useless in most cases. Usually they only find bodyfragments that are impossible to identify - even their nationality. Which makes it impossible to bury them officially as unknowns - because where would you bury them - a British cemetery? German, maybe?

And so they are thrown away - and the problem is solved. I was shocked when I heard this. But, like Chris said, how would you react when finding bones is common practice every harvest?

[Bert Heyvaert]

Marco, I am not sure, although I would like to find out cause I am very interested in this matter. I will try and get hold of the 1934 report of the IWGC when I am in London again. I was reading the 1924 report and read this:

p.33:

‘A considerable number of isolated graves are still being found and reported to the Commission’s officers. For the year ending 31st march, 1924, the number found and reburied was 4.074; of these 730 were identified. Reconstruction of the devastated areas is still far from complet in some districts, so it would be unwise to attempt an estimate of the numbers of isolated remains that will be found in the future. In agreement with the French and Belgian authorities an increased reward is now paid for the reporting of graves discovered by farmers or those engaged on the work of reconstruction.’

I would also think that an official search of the entire battlefield in 1934 would be quite a hassle with farmers having returned to their fields and woods being replanted. I guess permission would have been necessary from all the owners.

Bert

[Terry Denham]

Sorry Bert

I have just caught up on this thread. What do you want to find out in the 1934 report? Is it the date of the last official battlefield body search?

I have a copy of every one of the reports from the first in 1920 to 2004.

[Bert Heyvaert]

Hi Terry,

yes, I was wondering if they give some information on this matter.

regards,

Bert

[Marco]

I thought I had read '1934' somewhere in 'The unending Vigil' but as said I'm not sure. Reason for remembering was that I found it to be late too.

Regards,

Marco