Headstones on the Somme

[Lindsey]

I have recently been to the Somme and visited a number of cemeteries, Devonshire Cemetery at Mansell Copse being one of them and Hawthorn Ridge another and am puzzled by some headstones I have seen and wonder if anyone can help me find out what they mean.

They simply have a cross on them, no inscription, no 'known only to God' , no regiment badge, just the cross. What puzzles me is how did they know they were 'Christian' ??? if there were no identifying insignia as to who they were, where they had come from or what religion they were or what country they were from?? Perhaps i am missing the 'obvious'??

During our trip, we were fortunate enough to have a talk given by the CWGC but he didnt know either.

Here's hoping someone can solve the mystery!!

Lindsey

[Marco]

Hello Lindsey,

I asked this question a few years back myself. We have proven that the world is round

The headstones with only a cross is there as a christian marker for a group (row)of graves where the original burials where so close together that several names (usually two) had to be written on the one permanent headstone. Because of this there is no place for the christian cross on these headstones, hence one cross for all who wanted one.

Regards,

Marco

[Terry Denham]

Marco is right. These cross stones are not headstones but they provide the religious symbol for nearby headstones bearing multiple names.

[TD60]

Hello

For headstones with inscription Known on to God:

By default unkwown where consider as christians.

Think also about the great cross in cemetery.

Some headstone with name do not have a croos because they asked before death to have no cross on their grave if they would be killed.

Regards

[Lindsey]

Marco and Terry

Thank you for helping me solve this mystery and i am sure the 'man' from the CWGC will also be grateful to you too, should he be asked the same question in the future. It makes sense to me now!!!

TD60

If, as you say, some soldiers asked to have no cross to their headstone should they die, how does that explain the 'communal cross headstone' marking all the cumulative burials? when some of them may not have been Christain. I suppose it is like you said, the Cross of Rememberance is the symbol that identifies all of our cemeteries, regardless of belief?

Oh dear, i feel I'm getting into a debate that i didnt want to !!

Lindsey

[CROONAERT]

By default unkwown where consider as christians.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unless it's in a US cemetery, where a "percentage" of unknown graves are deemed to be Jewish!!!

Dave.

[Mark Hone]

The Americans of course complicated matters by adopting the cross as their gravestone marker symbol. I've seen Jewish American graves of course but what do they do about Muslims and avowed Atheists? I wonder if there has ever been an attempt to invoke the First Amendment (separation of Church and State) about the use of the cross in American cemeteries? One thing about the American and French use of the cross is that documentary film makers routinely use shots of their cemeteries even when the programme is about the British, as rows of crosses are clearly what the public expect to see in a war cemetery.

[BatterySergeantMajor]

The cross as "default" was already a compromise, after a fierce discussion about the shape of the headstones. The plain headstone was rightly seen as more neutral, but there was strong opposition from people who were convinced the graves should have a cross.

There seemed to have been a similar discussion around the cross of sacrifice.

Erwin

[Hedley Malloch]

I understand that Lutyens, the Chief Architect for the post-war construction of the cemeteries, was not a Christian and was not happy at being required to accommodate a Cross of Sacrifice in his cemeteries. In designing the cemeteries for which he was directly responsible he would wherever possible try to tuck away the Cross of Sacrifice in as relatively inconspicuous position as he could find.

Is Lutyens' alleged aversion to this religious sysmbol the reason why Bloomfield and not Lutyens designed the Cross of Sacrifice?

[Tom Morgan]

Hedley makes an interesting point. I don't know whether my observation is linked to his, but although the Cross of Sacrifice is one of the first architectural features which makes a British cemetery recognisable, especially from a distance, it isn't always the focal point of the cemetery once you enter. This is often the Stone of Remembrance, or War Stone, the 8-ton altar-like monolith which stands in those cemeteries with more than 400 burials. This feature was designed by Lutyens. It has no inscriptions on it which might give offence to non-christians and was designed to "commemorate those of all faiths and those of none".

Tom

[Terry Denham]

One minor correction...

Soldiers did not express a preference for a headstone without a cross should they die.

This was requested by the next-of-kin after death when contacted by CWGC. The CWGC headstone design was only unveiled in 1919 and therefore no soldier who died during the war would have had knowledge of its shape or layout - cross or not.

Each soldier's religion was recorded in his records (and in his pay book?) but I suspect that, apart from the obvious other sects/religions, most were entered as 'CofE' (English troops at least).

[Nick Cooper]

The Americans of course complicated matters by adopting the cross as their gravestone marker symbol. I've seen Jewish American graves of course but what do they do about Muslims and avowed Atheists? I wonder if there has ever been an attempt to invoke the First Amendment (separation of Church and State) about the use of the cross in American cemeteries? One thing about the American and French use of the cross is that documentary film makers routinely use shots of their cemeteries even when the programme is about the British, as rows of crosses are clearly what the public expect to see in a war cemetery.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, the BBC News web-site did that a few years back during the CWGC gardeners pay row, illustrating it with a picture of an American cemetery, which thankfully they quickly changed to something more appropriate after a diplomatically worded e-mail from myself!

[Nick Cooper]

One minor correction...

Soldiers did not express a preference for a headstone without a cross should they die.

This was requested by the next-of-kin after death when contacted by CWGC. The CWGC headstone design was only unveiled in 1919 and therefore no soldier who died during the war would have had knowledge of its shape or layout - cross or not.

Each soldier's religion was recorded in his records (and in his pay book?) but I suspect that, apart from the obvious other sects/religions, most were entered as 'CofE' (English troops at least).

The issue has also come up in the past that some Jewish lads from recently immigrated families signed up with both Anglicised surnames and as CofE in order to avoid being turned away at the recruiting office. IIRC, there have been one or two cases recently of families only just finding out that the graves of such soldiers who were killed were thus marked with the wrong religious symbol.

[Terry Denham]

The religious symbol was specifically requested by the next-of-kin and so any errors would be the the result of the n-o-k deliberately/erroneously selecting the wrong symbol. Alternatively it would be due to the n-o-k not returning the relevant documents to CWGC and so the assumption then would be that the religion in the records was correct (with Christian being the default for European troops).

[Lindsey]

One minor correction...

Soldiers did not express a preference for a headstone without a cross should they die.

This was requested by the next-of-kin after death when contacted by CWGC. The CWGC headstone design was only unveiled in 1919 and therefore no soldier who died during the war would have had knowledge of its shape or layout - cross or not.

Each soldier's religion was recorded in his records (and in his pay book?) but I suspect that, apart from the obvious other sects/religions, most were entered as 'CofE' (English troops at least).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Terry,,

It did occur to me that the headstones had not been designed at the time of war, as no one expected so much death, so therefore the soldiers could not 'decide' what went on them.Neither, I assume, did the soldiers go expecting death, I would imagine there was always hope that they would be 'the one ' to come home, hope being a human quality that we all have?? I hope!!!!

I am happy that my question was answered by you and Marco and, feel this debate is becoming a bit too religious for the likings of myself!! so i will bow out

Lindsey

[paul guthrie]

Unless it's in a US cemetery, where a "percentage" of unknown graves are deemed to be Jewish!!!

Dave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's correct for WW1 but after WW2 this did not happen when some general officer with the say so said he would not have a single Christian buried under a Star of David.