RFA TF 6 fig. nos.

[Simon R]

Are there any conventions as to which bty. (A-D) were re-numbered first in the 6 figure scheme?

It should be 1250 new numbers per bty.- does simply dividing up each 5000 block of numbers allocated to each bde. actually work? Is it that easy to say, 'he's got this no. therefore he must have been (at some point at least) with 'x' bty.'?

There are internal (albeit interrupted) sequences of names in alphabetical order with corresponding ascending 6 figure nos. - but not always. Is their any rhyme or reason to this?

[Graham Stewart]

Simon,

Are you talking about the new six figure regimental numbers which were issued to Territorials in 1917?

The following Army Council Instructions deal with the scheme A.C.I. 2243; A.C.I. 2414 & A.C.I. 2918. This latter A.C.I. also has Appendix 183, attached to it which lists all of the new six figure which were allotted to soldiers of the R.H.A. & R.F.A.(T.F.)

Appendix 184 of A.C.I. 2198 listed all of those new six figure numbers which were allotted to soldiers of the Royal Garrison Artillery.

How they were issued is another matter and would obviously depend on how the Officer i/c records administered them to those T.F. units in his relevant command. What I mean is did the relevant unit to which the numbers were issued use an alphabetical list of men serving with them or a numerical order? Did the old sweats get renumbered first, followed by the new boys? To be honest each unit would have to looked at in turn to see if a pattern begins to form.

What is obvious is the sequencing of the numbers e.g.

R.H.A. Inverness numbers 600001 - 602000

R.H.A. Ayrshire numbers 602001 - 604000

R.H.A. Shropshie numbers 604001 - 606000 and so on.

Highland Division(R.F.A.)

1st Brigade numbers 630001 - 635000

2nd Brigade numbers 635001 - 640000

3rd Brigade numbers 640001 - 645000

D.A.C. numbers 645001 - 650000 and so on

Highland Division(R.G.A.)

4th Brigade numbers 300001 - 306000

Fife Heavy Bty numbers 306001 - 307000 and so on.

I've been running a database on the Northumberland Fusiliers now since 1998 and it contains some 60,000 individuals. It's based on blocks of numbers, but there is no hard and fast rule, and incoming drafts don't help.

Graham.

[Stebie9173]

I'm no expert at this but I'm just starting to look at the 270th Brigade RFA (great-uncle Charlie served) and many of the numbers SEEM to be allocated 890xxx "A" Battery, 891xxx "B" Battery, etc.

Many of the men seem to have been re-numbered in the same sequence as their old number order.

e.g. 4727 to 891464, 4728 (not renumbered, died?), 4729 to 891465, 4730 to 891466.

They don't seem to follow alphabetical order in this Brigade.

Unfortunately Jock Bruce's fantastic TF numbering article stopped short of the RFA. Either, they are hideously complicated or Jock is scribbling away as we speak...

Like I said, I'm not an expert at all, and I will follow this thread with keen interest!

Steve.

[Graham Stewart]

Stebie,

East Anglian Division(R.F.A.)

1st Brigade numbers 875001 - 880000

2nd Brigade numbers 880001 - 885000

3rd Brigade numbers 885001 - 890000

4th Brigade numbers 890001 - 895000

D.A.C. numbers 895001 - 900000

East Anglian Division(R.G.A.)

Essex Heavy Battery numbers 316001 - 317000

Graham.

[Stebie9173]

Thanks, Graham.

That's gonna save some time!

(Takes all the fun out of research, though. )

Over the last couple of days, I'd pretty much nailed the 4th Brigade numbers, the RGA and the DAC but it's great to see I wasn't barking up the wrong tree.

Just got to see if there is rhyme or reason to the Battery letters, now!

Steve.

[Graham Stewart]

Stebie,

Two good books to read on the subject of Artillery formations are;-

"The Territorial Artillery 1908 - 1988" by Norman Litchfield.

"Lineage Book of The British Land Forces 1660 - 1978(vols I & II)" by J.B.M. Frederick.

Volume II of this book is dedicated totally to Artillery units and both volumes together are about 3inches deep. To save forking out big bucks, see if you can get both through your local library on the inter-loan service.

Graham.

[jim_davies]

Simon.

In the T.F. infantry (at least the battalions I've looked at) had their renumbering occur in the same way that Steve described.

Steve,

My g-g-dad was a pre war member of the 4th East Anglian, being one of about 20 Stamford lads who served with the unit during the war.

Jim

[Stebie9173]

Hello, Jim

We've spoken before on one of your topics (about Seaman Rice, Submariner) and "talked" about the Peterborough Library and 1st and 2nd Northants at Aubers Ridge. At the time I didn't know that my great-uncle was in the Northants Battery (just that he was RFA). I should have guessed really, with him from this neck of the woods, that the Northants Battery was going to be favourite.

I have been trawling the local papers quite regularly (mainly for 6th Northants men) and now of course I have added interest in the Northants Battery/273rd/270th Brigade!

If you give me a list of your men's names (the previous Topic was in a Temporary fourm and got deleted), I'll keep an eye out for them as I go. There seems to be a fair few pics of them before they left the UK in 1915 and I saw one of the "Small Arms Section" from "somewhere in Egypt" in December 1916 just yesterday.

Steve.

[Simon R]

Many thanks to all of you - good to get some comparative info.

I've got AC2198 Appendix 183 in my sticky paw - most useful. From the work I did last night I can offer the following which might be of interest.

245th Bde. (1st West Riding) RFA TF.

775000 appears to be start of D bty 245 sequence.

Example of alphabetic/alphanumeric sequence:

776149 Barwick

776158 Driver

776160 Frankland

776161 Gaulter

776162 Holmes

776174 Renwick

776175 Richardson

776181 Sugden

776183 Swift

776186 Tennant

776187 Thornton

776250 UNIT BOUNDARY

776324 Stephenson, H. signaller B bty 245th bde RFA (1st West Riding)

A lot of gaps but it would appear that in this sequence, the bdes. 4.5" howitzer bty. is numbered first. A-C btys. have 1250 blocks a piece after this, but I don't have the names.

[rflory]

Steve wrote:

I'm no expert at this but I'm just starting to look at the 270th Brigade RFA (great-uncle Charlie served) and many of the numbers SEEM to be allocated 890xxx "A" Battery, 891xxx "B" Battery, etc.

Steve: Are you aware of the book A Short History of the Northamptonshire Battery, B/270, RFA? It is a 124-page history of the battery with appendicies that list the officers of the battery, and give a nominal roll of other ranks in the battery on 5 August 1914.

Regards. Dick Flory

[Stebie9173]

I am now...

Thanks.

The Nominal Roll is a little early for Charles since he turned 19 in early 1917, which I think is when he went overseas.

I'll look it up. I've only really narrowed down his service this week.

Steve.

[rflory]

Steve: What is Charles' full name? I can go through the book and see if he is mentioned. Dick

[Stebie9173]

Thanks, Dick.

Gunner Charles Brooksbank 4730 & 891466 is his full name, rank and numbers. His address would probably have been Church Street, Stanground, Peterborough (or perhaps Water End). Entitled VM, BWM & SWB. He didn't win any gallantry medals, as far as I know.

I am not 100% sure this is him, as I have no definitive evidence that he is this exact man.

However, he is from Peterborough (and "B" battery, 270 Brigade, was the former Northamptonshire Battery which was known locally as the Peterborough Battery) and his daughter, who I have spoken to only once, says that he served in Egypt and stayed until 1919-1920 which fits with 54 Division, too. A newspaper article about his POW brother places him in the RFA. Since "Charlie Brooksbank" is the only RFA man (I've tried a lot of combinations on the MIC) and the numbers fit with where he would likely have served as a TF man (Number 4730, I think fits with early 1915 enlistment just after he turned 17, and he got a VM & BWM which suggests he went later to France than the number would suggest he should.) So I'm 95% convinced this is him.

The only real fly in the ointment is a mention of a SWB on his MIC, despite the family story that he remained in Egypt after the War, which I have not yet looked up in the Rolls at Kew.

Sorry to ramble,

I will much appreciate any info you might have,

Steve.

[jim_davies]

Hi Steve,

My g-g-father was Driver Sid Lee, 4217 went to France and then Egypt with the battery. When time expired in mid 1916-opted to return home. Didn't help him much as by Dec 1916 he was serving with the artillery again, but not with the Northants Battery.

Other men with a Stamford connection in the battery included:

Frederick Charles Cant, 4304, later 891212-killed in Dec 1917

Thomas Morris Barnett, 4213, later 891183, died while serving with the RE in Feb 1919

Gnr Frank Foster, 4243, died in 1918 at home not commemorated by CWGC or SD.

Bertram M Cornell, 4246

Dvr A. Cunnington

Gnr A.W. Lambert

Far Sgt Albert E. Harrison, 4344 later 891236

Far Sgt Alfred Porter

Dvr Bertram Negus, 4317

Bbr Cecil Blake, 4190, later 891176 (lived two doors from my g-g-father)

Gnr Charles Lavender, 4401, later 891269

Gnr Charles Morley

Gnr Charles R. Knighten

Bbr Christopher Wilson, 4244, later 891551

Gnr E. Braunston

Gnr E. Cunnington

Gnr Ernest Betts, 4191, later 891177-had two brother's killed in Aug 1916

Cpl F. Bradbury, 4218, later 891187

Gnr Frank Jackson

Dvr Frederick Boughton, 4400, later 891268

QMsgt Gordon E. Griffin 4187, later 891175

Sgt H. Andrews

Gnr H. Baxter, 4204

Gnr H. Hodgett

Sgt Harold W.E. Wade, 4205, later 891180

Gnr Herbert V. Tooley, 822, later 890637

A/Bbr Isaac Cummins, 4234, later 891188

Dvr J. Fleckner, 4229

Gnr James Jefferies, 4307, later 891213

Gnr John Hewerdine

Gnr John Pearson Skellett

Trpr John Stimson Foster, 4358

BSM Marshall Arnold Buzzard, 891311

Dvr Neville Mee, 891201

Dvr Rupert Smith, 4462, later 891312

Gnr T.J. Cummings

Sgt W. Bell, 891265, awarded DCM in May 1918

BSM W.J. Richards

Cpl William Garrett, 891197

Gnr William H. Rigney, 4293, later 891207

Dvr William Thomas Foster, 4192

Sgt William Thomas Hudson, 4244 later 891190

Lt-Col Marquess of Exeter

Lt W.G. Barford

Lt Claude H.J. Phillips

Only really interested in Cant, Foster and Barnett right now-but anything that might add to their experience would be great.

Jim

[Stebie9173]

Cripes, now that's a list....

Let's see.

Frederick Cant. Found a picture of him at the weekend with the "Headquarters Staff, Peterborough Battery".

I've got a bad photocopy at the moment but I'll see if I can get a photo of the pic if the library will alow it.

Gunner Cant is third from the right top row. Sorry about the rubbish photocopy.

EDIT : It's from the Peterborough Advertiser. March 10 1917.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Also pictured in the Advertiser:

22.1.1916

NCOs of the Peterborough Battery. Sgt Barber, Sgt Appleby, Sgt Copley, SGT HARRISON, Sgt Tom Odom, SGT BELL, Sgt Burgess, Sgt Dixon, BQMS GRIFFIN, BSM Stimpson.

22.1.1916

Driver Reginald Hilliam and Gunner Percy Hilliam of 1/1st N. Battery, and brother H W Hilliam of 2/4th N. Bty.

5.2.1916

Battery Boys leaving France for ______. (Egypt no doubt)

Drivers Church, Palmer, Mann, Blades and Maddison.

5.2.1916 (article not pic)

Details of Wrestling match 24.1.1916 in France between Drivers Walker (aka Johnnie Trotter) and Elsom (Brigadier Bottles). Also mentioned Drivers Harvey (referee), Edward, Thorold, Tee, Mann, Chambers, Thompson, (seconds) Frisby, Trumpeter Lambert (timekeepers). Driver CORNELL entertained with his mouth-organ between rounds! A draw, by the way...

6.1.1917

Pic of the Battery's, er, battery of Christmas Turkeys in Egypt with awful Captured Turk(ey)s pun...

24.2.1917

Atmospheric pic of horse team, limber and gun silhouetted agianst desert sky, featuring Driver (Edward) Bowring.

24.2.1917

Unnamed shot of Peterborough Battery boys, with Driver Bowring, again.

Any orders?

Steve.

[jim_davies]

Hi Steve,

The picture showing Cant is great. It also shows a little of his service (being attached to the HQ) which is very useful as his records do not survive.

I too, was surprised when I put all the lads names down in one list. Their contribution to the war is absent from the Stamford newspapers (which record in detail the various doings of the other units with a large number of men from the town serving) who seldom mention their war.

If possible the photos from

5.2.1916

Battery Boys leaving France for ______. (Egypt no doubt)

Drivers Church, Palmer, Mann, Blades and Maddison.

and....

24.2.1917 would be fantastic

Atmospheric pic of horse team, limber and gun silhouetted against desert sky, featuring Driver (Edward) Bowring.

Thanks again.

Jim

[rflory]

Here is what appears to be the same photo that Steve posted but this time titled: "Signallers" from A Short History of the Northamptonshire Battrey, B/270, R.F. A. Dick

[Stebie9173]

And, to be honest it makes a lot more sense as signallers than as HQ staff, what with telescope and flags, and the tripod, et al...

Just when Jim thought he had a bit of unequivocal information! I think I would trust the book picture caption over a newspaper any day of the week. I doubt the accuracy of newspaper reporting has changed much over the years.

Thanks Dick.

Steve.

P.S. Did you find any reference to Charles Brooksbank in the book? (I believe a Bertie Brooksbank may also have been with the Battery, but he may not be related)

Jim, Conversely to the Stamford papers the Northants/Peterborough Battery appears to be the Advertisers "pet" unit. I'm going to look through 1915 for references to Charles and I'll keep an eye out. When I get my camera to the library I'll get you your pics.

[rflory]

Steve: I could find no listing for anyone with the name "Brooksbank" in the book. Unfortunatley the only nominal roll in the book is on for mobilization in 1914. The highest number in that list is in the 9400s. Dick

[Stebie9173]

Thanks,

I didn't really expect to see him before at least early 1915 since he was born in early 1898.

Steve.

[jim_davies]

Steve,

Thanks again. It's much appreciated.

Jim

[Stebie9173]

Jim,

Family funeral today and my father brought a gift for me back from Charlie Brooksbanks daughter - Charlie's own copy of the Short History of the Northants Battery. (Where is the happy dance smiley?!)

Anyway, several mentions of your men straight off:

Men embodied with the Northamptonshire Battery RFA, 4th East Anglian Brigade on 5-8-1914

4304 Gunner Cant F.C. KIA 11-12-1917

4217 Driver Lee S Discharged 10-4-1916

4243 Gunner Foster F Discharged 9-10-1914

4213 Driver Barnett T Transferred to RE 2-7-1918

Men who died with the Battery.

4304 Gunner (Sig.) F. Cant Killed in action near Mulebbis, 11-12-1917

Fred Cant is definitely a signaller then...

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

The rest of your list, Jim.

All men embodied at 5-8-1914

4246 Driver Cornell B Discharged 30-5-1916

4306 Gunner Lambert A Discharged 4-6-1915

4344 Corporal Harrison A E Discharged 17-8-1919

4345 Shoeing Smith Sgt Porter A Discharged 31-3-1920

4190 Driver Blake C Discharged 31-3-1920

4401 Driver Lavender C Discharged 31-3-1920

4211 Driver Knighten C H R Transferred to RFC 12-3-1917

4195 Gunner Branston E W Discharged 1-2-1916

4109 Driver Cunnington E Discharged 25-2-1916

4191 Gunner Betts E Discharged 31-3-1920

4218 Gunner F Bradbury Discharged 31-3-1920

4400 Driver Boughton E (not F) Discharged 31-3-1920

4187 Sgt Griffin G E Discharged 31-3-1920

4209 Corporal Andrews H To 59th Div 24-11-1916

4204 Gunner Baxter H Discharged 2-3-1916

4258 Driver Hodgett H Discharged 25-3-1915

4205 Gunner Wade H Discharged 31-3-1920

4229 Gunner Flecknor J Discharged 31-3-1920

4307 Gunner Jeffries J Discharged 31-3-1920

4235 Gunner Hewardine J Discharged 18-4-1916

4225 Gunner J P Skellett Discharged 29-3-1916

4283 Driver Mee N Discharged 31-3-1920

4234 Gunner Cummings I J Discharged 31-3-1920

4397 Gunner Bell W DCM Discharged 31-3-1920

4186 Corporal Richards W J Discharged 31-3-1920

4203 Gunner Rigney W H Discharged 31-3-1920

4192 Driver Foster W T Discharged 1-2-1916

4244 Gunner Hudson W T Discharged 28-6-1917

From Officers List:

Exeter W T B, Marquess of, Major, later Colonel, C.M.G. A.D.C

Lt W G Barford, later Captain, resigned.

2/Lt C J Phillips, later Captain.

Not mentioned:

A Cunnington, B Negus, I Cummins, C Morley, F Jackson, H Tooley (all original numbers are in the 4000 range), J S Foster, M A Buzzard, R Smith, W Garrett,

There is a 4214 Driver C Wilson but he was discharged 10-4-1916 (the 4244 Wilson was renumbered). There are alos two 4244 numbers in the list. I think this 4244 is from a different Brigade.

Steve.

[jim_davies]

Bloody Hell Steve,

Can't thank you enough for taking the time to look up all the lads. Surprised at how many of the lads were discharged in early 1916-thought my g-g-father was special!

Hope to see you in two weeks and buy you that pint.

Jim