Woman Sniper on Gallipoli

[curranl]

Hello All,

I have been reading The Empress of Ireland by Christopher Robbins. It is a biography of the Irish film director Brian Desmond Hurst. Hurst directed Scrooge, Malta Story and a few other bits and pieces from that era. What interested me about the biography was that Hurst served in Gallipoli with the 6th Royal Irish Rifles, my grand uncles battalion.

However, there are several parts of his recounting of his time in Gallipoli that don't stand up. He claims to have been a Sargeant; I downloaded his MIC out of curiosity to find that he was down as a Private (though with the high level of casualties it is possible he would be promoted, but surely this would show on his MIC.). He also claims that they landed at Suvla Bay and that men were caught in underwater barbed wire and were subsequently killed when monitors shelled the barbed wire to break it up. In fact the 6th landed at Anzac Cove and all got ashore safely.

But the most bizzare part of his story is the claim that a patrol he was on captured a woman sniper. I know we have had this one before, but this is the first time I have ever read a first hand account of this alleged capture. The account has many of the elements we have seen before; the sniper is said to have had close to a dozen i.d. tags around her neck, etc.

What is particularly disturbing about this account, however, is that Hurst claims to have witnessed the rape of this sniper by several men from the patrol. He claims that he himself and some other men present did not take part in the rape and that the sniper was subsequently murdered by the senior NCO present, a Sergeant Major. The Sargeant Major hands the bunch of identidy discs to Hurst and tells him take them back to his Captain:"Take these down to the Captain.Tell him the sniper has been dealt with. Don't say anything else". Interestingly, the Captain's name checks out; in the book he is down as Captain Lawrie and there was a Captain R H Lorie in the 6th RIR.

Other elements of his recounting of his time on Gallipoli do add up - he describes men dying of dysentry, etc. But the fact that so much of what he recounts is dubious makes me wonder about the truth of the above story.

What do you think?

Regards,

Liam.

[Bryn]

I think it's a fantasy, and would ask these questions:

Which unit/s in the Ottoman army - which at Gallipoli consisted mostly of Muslim, early-20th-century, Turkish and Arab units - trained women as snipers during the Balkan Wars and 1914, so that by the time of Gallipoli they were crack shots and expert soldiers, individually deployed against the allies, and managing to bag many victims (unseen), and remove those victims' dogtags (unseen)?

Had the Ottoman army run out of crack shots of the male variety? If so, when did that happen?

Which member of Sultan Mohammed V's Sublime Porte decided it would be a good idea to train women as soldiers, or was it his German advisors?

What were these women's sleeping / washing / sanitary arrangements in camp and in the front line?

Where are the official reports or photos concerning these women, either from the Turkish or allied side?

Where are the photos or records of these women receiving decorations or recognition for their services?

Where is there even a passing reference to their existence in the books by British Intelligence (TE Lawrence), or Armstrong, Morgenthau, von Sanders, Kinross, Palmer, Fasih, Ryan, Mango, Sefik Bey, or Erickson?

The overall roaring silence on the matter - which, had it been true would have been sensational - seems to me to speak far more than the few scattered accounts that crop up from time to time.

[curranl]

Hello Bryn,

Thanks for your contribution. I have to say I agree. Quite how the female sniper got the dogtags of soldiers presumably killed in the British lines has always puzzled me!

Have read some of the rest of the book ( I naturally started with the chapter on Gallipoli) I would have to say that Brian Hurst was blessed with an extremely active imagination.

Regards,

Liam.

[Desmond7]

I think the words 'flamboyant raconteur' just about sum up Hurst's tale!

See this from web.

Brian Desmond Hurst Born in Castle Reagh in 1895, Brian Desmond Hurst was an art student in Paris before his trip to America where he stayed for several years as one of John Ford's assistants. Moving to England in the early 1930s, Hurst made his first major impression with a version of Edgar Allan Poe's The Tell-Tale Heart (1934). Hurst's most famous film was Scrooge, his version of Dickens' A Christmas Carol (1951).

Ireland's most prolific film director has been all but forgotten. A flamboyant raconteur and man of enormous charm, he was a man of many contradictions, he was a Protestant Ulsterman who converted to Catholicism. A republican sympathiser who fought in the first World War and made propaganda films during the second. A devout homosexual who was equally as devout in worship of his patron saint St Thérése.

With over 30 films to his credit, Hurst also directed the definitive screen version of Synge's Playboy of the Western World in 1962. It proved to be his last film although he never stopped trying to get other projects off the ground until his death in 1986.

[Marco]

A devout homosexual

So the part about him not raping the female sniper checks out!

Regards,

Marco

[DirtyDick]

So the part about him not raping the female sniper checks out!

Regards,

Marco

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unless he shut his eyes...

I believe that during both world wars, snipers (as with MGs) were singled out for harsh treatment upon being captured, so if there is any truth behind it - which I doubt, for the same reasons as Bryn outlined - the rape-murder allegation would not be unsurprising news.

[curranl]

Hello All,

At the risk of going too far off the original thread and/or upsetting the mods, I have to quote Hurst verbatim:

"Some people have asked me over the years whether I am bis***ual. In fact, I am tri***ual. The Army, the Navy and the Household Cavalry."

Hurst had a thing for men in uniform. Quite what he had against the RAF I'm not sure.

Regards,

Liam - Off to the dugout before the shelling starts

[Marco]

Unless he shut his eyes... 

I hadn't thought of that, thanks Dick. May I ask if this is conjecture on your part or personal experience?

Regards,

Marco

[Marco]

In an attempt not to get an off-topic reputation: noticeable things did happen. For example:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~aur/Individuals/savs.htm

Regards,

Marco

[Mat McLachlan]

I didn't have anything constructive to add to this topic until this afternoon. I was browsing the Australian War Memorial site and stumbled across the attached pic taken by the Gallipoli Mission in 1919.

The caption reads:

Looking north up Pope's Reserve Gully (Hill) from the old casualty clearing station, 150 yards above the supply depot. The lowest point on the skyline was held by Turkish soldiers. The high corner on the right is the extreme left corner of Pope's Hill. The high ground on the left is Walker's Ridge. A small pine tree on the left centre on the slope of Walker's Ridge is the tree which was pointed out to the new arrivals by the older hands as the place where the lady sniper was caught in the early days of the campaign. One of a series of photographs taken on the Gallipoli Peninsula under the direction of Captain C E W Bean of The Australian Historical Mission, during the months of February and March, 1919.

Curiouser and curiouser...

Mat

[curranl]

Hello Mat,

Thanks for that. In some ways this confirms the idea the whole story is a myth. Hurst claims the 6th Royal Irish Rifles captured the sniper, but they didn't arrive in Gallipoli until the 5th of August.

The old hand Aussies in your contribution say she was captured in the early days - presumably April/May.

It all seems to point to a story that just got legs and couldn't be stopped!

Regards,

Liam.

[T8HANTS]

Hi

It is interesting to see that this story has a slightly wider base than just the lads of 163 Brigade following their attack on the 12th of August, their letters mentioning the general "Fact" that a female sniper had been captured (always by somebody else) were being published by September.

So unless we have a very enlightened Turkish Brigade commander with his own pet female sniper unit, or the remote possibility of a woman who successfully hid her sex from her comrades as some were reported to have done during the 19th centaury, all the old arguments against apply,

Why no evidence in other theatres and against other elements of the Turkish army.

Apart from the Hurst story, the capture is always a third hand tale, or told years after the event.

Snipers normally lie low, not go wandering about the battlefield looking for souvenirs.

As I have no knowledge of Brian Hurst, but note that he was a republican as reported above, did his version of the tale come out when there was some political advantage to portraying the English soldier as a rapist and murderer?

[DirtyDick]

It is the kind of tale that will doubtless be resurected time and time again to suit modern sensibilities and agendas.

If they made another film about Gallipoli they would surely include it as fact - and probably make her a romantic lead: a brave, superhuman Anzac (an American who joined up in Sydney) captures her, beats up some naughty English soldiers who want to kill her - and who have nothing better to do and dislike everyone else because they are English - and escapes with her in a rowing boat. They settle down on a farm in the Mid West, where she defies stereotype by winning shooting competitions.

Offers above £500,000 for the full storyline and its yours.

[curranl]

Hello All and thanks for the contributions,

T8Hants,

I think it's unlikely Hurst was much of a Republican. The men he served with in the 6th Royal Irish Rifles were predominantly Northern Irishmen, so it is unlikely he included the incident as a propaganda story. As I said earlier, he was blessed with a very, very vivid imagination and I suspect he heard the story on Gallipoli and added a few flourishes to increase it's dramatic impact.

Richard,

Gallipoli to the American Midwest in a rowing boat? Hope they brought a few Mars bars

Regards,

Liam.

[GrandsonMichael]

I don’t know what to make of these stories, but to confuse matters may I add the following information:

“ An Australian patrol caught a Turkish woman sniper who had the identity discs of several British soldiers hanging round her neck. They shot her, and that shocked me for I thought she was a brave person doing only what many British women would have done to invaders of our land. But I kept my mouth shut for I knew that in war everyone is effected by its lunacy”.

The supposed words of a machine-gunner of the 4th Northamptonshire (T) Regiment, who landed at Suvla Bay August 7th, 1915, and witnessed this the day after, according to the book Machine Gunner 1914 – 1918 compiled and edited by C.E. Crutchley, Second and enlarged edition, 1975.

Cheers,

Michael

[curranl]

Hello Michael,

As others have said, this story (in the best tradition of urban myths) always involves the sniper being captured by someone else. Hurst's is the only account (as far as I know) that claims to be first hand. So much else of Hurst's account of Gallipoli is provably fiction and his imagination was so vivid that I could happily dismiss the story.

Regards,

Liam.

[GrandsonMichael]

Hi Liam,

Well, that's the bummer: the words I qouted came directly from C. E. Crutchley, 135 Machine Gun Company and 1/4th Northants Regiment (T). He compiled and edited his own recollections amongst many others.

Very first hand me thinks....

Cheers,

Michael

[curranl]

Hello Michael,

I wasn't so much doubting Crutchley's account as suggesting that it a story told to Crutchley by the machine gunner, who (as far as I can figure out from the quote) was not a witness to the event, but was in turn told the story by the Australians.

There are also the capturers/time elements - Crutchley says the Australians captured her in early August, Hurst says she was captured by the Royal Irish Rifles in early August and Mat's quote on the photo says she was captured in the early days of the campaign.

Along with all the other obvious questions raised earlier, there are simply too many variations of the story. It's a pity in some ways; it's a great story

Regards,

Liam.

[Eceabat]

Just thought I’d pick a few nits with the sniper story (the basis of which I don’t believe at all).

Regarding the writing of Crutchley, citing a machine gunner of the Northampton Regiment talking of an Australian patrol capturing and shooting a Turkish woman sniper on August 8, there are two points (or nits).

One is that the 1/4 Northamptons didn’t land until August 15 according to Aspinall Oglander’s official history, throwing the timing out rather. The second nit is, what Australian patrol at Suvla? The only Australian unit in the sector was the Royal Australian Naval Bridging Train, which mainly confined its activities to the beach areas (though a couple of the seamen did sneak off to do a bit of sniping themselves).

Just thought I would throw in my two bobs worth.

Eceabat

[T8HANTS]

Hi Eceabat

The other problem with this hairy old story is "Where's the Body", if this girl was captured she would have been used for propaganda purposes, or taken to the nearest officers mess dugout and toasted as a heroine. Unless of course she was killed off by her captors.

I think this is myth, possibly with the slim basis of someone seeing a baby faced Turk, killed or captured, and so it has become one of those wonderful "Trench Tales" with no conclusion.

[truthergw]

Hi Eceab

I think this is myth, possibly with the slim basis of someone seeing a baby faced Turk, killed or captured, and so it has become one of those wonderful "Trench Tales" with no conclusion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this lady can take her place on the train full of russians travelling through the UK.

There were plenty of old soldiers who would never let the facts get in the way of a good story. No basis in fact was needed.

[grantmal]

According to Robert Kearney's book on 10th AIF, "Silent Voices", Lt Loutit and a small group of mixed Australian infantry, after attacking the Turkish field guns in the Cup on the morning of April 25th, "proceeded down Owen's Gully where they came across some Turkish tents with women's clothing in them and gardens around the front of each" (p. 87).

Has the female sniper myth emerged from these empty clothes?

regards,

Grant

[Adrian Roberts]

This reminds me of the TV drama about Gallipoli a couple of years back. I can't remember its title but it starred David Jason if I remember rightly as a manager of Sandringham Estate who recruited a Company of his employees; they went off to Gallipoli and supposedly got murdered when taken prisoner. (Any truth in that part?)

But at one point, the major character is attacked by a Turk who kills his comrade, he fights the Turk hand to hand, then finds she is a woman and instantly rapes her.

This struck me as the BBC trying to undermine the British soldier as usual. Firstly, the soldier was in the most terrifying situation of his life. I don't know about you but even with the resulting adrenalin rush I don't think I could go from fighting for my life to being physiologically able and willing to rape someone, that quickly! Since the woman was wearing battledress the mere fact of finding out she was female was hardly a turn-on (I would have thought). The male character can't be said to be brutalised by the war as he had only just arriived in Gallipoli and this was his first taste of combat. So what was the BBC saying: that all British soldiers are potential rapists, or that all men are potential rapists who will rape at a moment's notice?

And the medical officer of the unit made much of his memory of serving in the Boer War, where - guess what - he witnessed Boer women and children dying by the thousand in British concentration camps. Maybe there is some truth in this, but the gratuitious mention of it in a programme about Gallipoli added to the feeling of the programme being an opportunity by the BBC to bash the British Establishment.

Adrian

[bob lembke]

I saw and taped the TV film in the US several years ago. I really liked it, but don't remember too much. I remember the woman fighter, but not her rape. Possibly it got edited out for the US audience.

Possibly the film was a BBC attack on the British establishment. Not a bad place to start.

Basically the unit charged uphill into clouds or something, and just disappeared, and became the stuff of legend. The Turks fought and basically offered no quarter. One POW did come back after the war. (Was he saved by German officers? I know I have heard of examples of German officers saving captured men at Gallipoli in primary sources I have read, possibly I got that from one of them.) In the film one of the characters went back after the war to look about, came across evidence that some of the men had been killed on the battlefield, sort of complained to his Turkish guide, who may have fought there, and was basically told that they might have been received with greater hospitality in they had been invited onto Turkish soil, instead of inviting themselves, and that clemency was a luxury that they could not afford.

My father fought at Gallipoli, against the ANZAC beachhead, with the Turkish Army, as a volunteer German pioneer, and he really loved them and their extraordinary spirit and toughness. He fought thru almost the whole war, and in the Freikorps after the war, and he thought that they were the best troops he ever encountered, except for his own storm unit, and the Storm Battalion Rohr, which he also fought with. Not technically superior, but in spirit, courage, etc. It is not widely appreciated that they were outnumbered in men at almost every stage of Gallipoli, as well as being badly off in weapons, artillery ammunition, etc. (Their shells were quite unlikely to explode.)

Bob Lembke

[T8HANTS]

Hi Adrian & Bob

The BBC's "All the kings Men" has been done to death on the forum, look up "5th Norfolk Regiment"

Bob, how interesting that you have the perspective of the "other side", as my local unit (8th Hants) were also in the above attack, I was raised on stories of Gallipoli, and knew several veterans. My Uncle Albert who fought from Gallipoli to Lebanon, had a grudging admiration for the Turkish troops. His favorite saying when talking about them was "They never told us the ******* would shoot back" And yes there was a general opinion at the time that the Germans amongst the Turkish troops did ensure that captured soldiers were as well treated as could be expected in an army that lacked most things even for its own men.

If we British had handled things better "the *******" might not shot at anybody, or even for our side.

I have long thought it ironic that there must have been hundreds of men with grandfathers who had sailed past Gallipoli to fight the Russians on behalf of Turkey sixty years earlier. Ain't history fun!!