E. Lancs No. 53965

[6th Shropshires]

Hi All

Anyone out there interested in East Lancs. Regt. could you tell me if Regt. No. 53965 is a post war Number or not please.

Thanks in advance

Annette

[Muerrisch]

during, I suspect

[6th Shropshires]

Thanks LB

The reason I ask is that the M.I.C. on-line records Pte. 12188 George T., Holden, of the 6/K.S.L.I. also serving under 53965 E. Lancs. Holden's 14-15 Star medal entry records that he was Class Z - now if he had joined the E. Lancs. before becoming Class Z would not they have issued his Star or am I braking up the wrong tree

Annette

[CROONAERT]

Thanks LB

The reason I ask is that the M.I.C. on-line records Pte. 12188 George T., Holden, of the 6/K.S.L.I. also serving under 53965 E. Lancs. Holden's 14-15 Star medal entry records that he was Class Z - now if he had joined the E. Lancs. before becoming Class Z would not they have issued his Star or am I braking up the wrong tree

Annette

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All I can say is, even though it's an odd ELR number, the lowest number to be encountered in the East Lancs in 1920, after the re-numbering programme, was 3377001, so this number is definately pre-1920.

A 5 digit number beginning with the number 5 is most unusual within the ELR (which has no "set" rules as regards battalion numbering systems as such - only loose "guides") unless he was "home-service" only (which I haven't studied). If this was the case though, surely it wouldn't be mentioned on the MIC?

Could it be a clerical error?

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

the lowest number to be encountered in the East Lancs in June 1920 was 3377001, so this number is definately pre-1920.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...but, thinking about it, it could be one of the 1919 "oddities" ( a period of the ELR I haven't really studied in any depth), when several regiments adopted a new , temporary, numbering system before the onset of the 1920 "Army ("regimental" is a better description) Number".

Dave.

[Jock Bruce]

I've noticed in some regiments series of number which appear to be an interim between the wartime system and the 1920s Army-wide system. I suspect, but have never proved, that these are men who chose to extend their 'duration' enlistment to serve in e.g. the British Army of Occupation.

I must give Army Orders a bash sometime to see if there is any clue.

Jock

P.S. Two minds with but a single thought

[SteveE]

I was under the impression that a soldier's medal entitlement was recorded in the Medal Rolls of his last named unit, in this instance the East Lancs.

However, in my (limited) experience of a Royal Fusiliers battalion I have come across instances where the Star was recorded in the Fusiliers Roll instead of their last named unit so could it have been a clerical error?

Steve

[6th Shropshires]

but, thinking about it, it could be one of the 1919 "oddities" ( a period of the ELR I haven't really studied in any depth), when several regiments adopted a new , temporary, numbering system before the onset of the 1920 "Army ("regimental" is a better description) Number".

Hi Dave - This is what I was thinking. The K.S.L.I. 1919 temporary, numbering system were five digit starting 48. But like you I know little of the 1919 system.

I was under the impression that a soldier's medal entitlement was recorded in the Medal Rolls of his last named unit, in this instance the East Lancs.

However, in my (limited) experience of a Royal Fusiliers battalion I have come across instances where the Star was recorded in the Fusiliers Roll instead of their last named unit

Hi Steve- I was also under this impression but again like you have found the odd chap who trans. to another unit in the K.S.L.I. 14-15 Star rolls. He is not in the K.S.L.I. Victory/British Medal Roll.

I suspect, but have never proved, that these are men who chose to extend their 'duration' enlistment to serve in e.g. the British Army of Occupation.

Hi Jock- You could be right but I am not sure if its a case of extending their duration of enlistment. I have an example in the medal roll of a chap with one of these temporary numbers. The roll records Discharged 23-3-19 re-enlisted 24-5-19 into K.S.L.I. new No. 48283.

Anyway Thanks to all who have replied any other comments are welcome

Annette

[CROONAERT]

Annette.

I have a little business to partake in at Fulwood Barracks the week after next. I'll see if I can get a definative answer while I'm there (if no-one else answers in the meantime).

Dave.

[6th Shropshires]

I have a little business to partake in at Fulwood Barracks the week after next. I'll see if I can get a definative answer while I'm there (if no-one else answers in the meantime).

Thanks Dave that would be great.

Annette

[Jock Bruce]

Annette,

interesting - possibly all enlsitments were allocated these numbers in the 'interim' period.

I've never actually seen the papers for any the guys in my database who ended up with one of these numbers, so hadn't picked up on the question of a break in service. I guess those duration men who served on without a break would also have received one of these number because they have been serving on new terms and conditions.

I almost got round to scouring AOs and ACIs today at TNA but got bogged down in something else.

Jock

Hi Jock- You could be right but I am not sure if its a case of extending their duration of enlistment. I have an example in the medal roll of a chap with one of these temporary numbers. The roll records Discharged 23-3-19 re-enlisted 24-5-19 into K.S.L.I. new No. 48283.

Annette

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[6th Shropshires]

I guess those duration men who served on without a break would also have received one of these number because they have been serving on new terms and conditions.

Hi Jock

This could be the case, I have just over a hundred men now in my database who served in K.S.L.I. during the war and have these new 1919 Numbers, and 20 are recorded as discharged, all the others that I have found in the 14-15 Star rolls record Class Z.

This is a very gray area for me but hopefully it will became less gray. Please let me know if you find out more and I'll do the same if I find out any more info. to shed light on this sudject.

Thanks

Annette

[6th Shropshires]

I have a little business to partake in at Fulwood Barracks the week after next. I'll see if I can get a definative answer while I'm there (if no-one else answers in the meantime).

Hi Dave

Just bringing this one back up to top. Dave did you have any luck ?

Also does anyone know if this batch of Cheshire Regt. numbers are 1919 "oddities" ? They are six diget starting 69***. I have lots of K.S.L.I. who have trans. to Cheshires with such numbers. What makes me think they are 1919 "oddities" is that many of the K.S.L.I. lads are recorded wounded under K.S.L.I. in late 1918 (reported in paper as late as December so wounded in very latter stages of war).

Also K.O.Y.L.I. number range 769** & 77***, are these 1919 "oddities" again many K.S.L.I. trans. to K.O.Y.L.I. with these numbers, most seem to have been P.O.W.'s ?

Any help very welcome

Annette

[Chris_Baker]

Oddly enough I have just finished researching a man who had a 53--- East Lancs number. As far as I can tell the numbers in this series were issued around September 1918. He had also had a lengthy break in service, certainly out of it in 1916 having first gone to Gallipoli in 1915. He was a former Territorial. I do not think the break was due to him being "time expired".

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Chris

Thanks for that. I am still a little confused, about which Regiment should have issued his 14-15 Star, if he was with the East Lancs before he became Clazz Z, then I was under the impression that a soldier's medal entitlement was recorded in the Medal Rolls of his last named unit ? yet he his recorded in K.S.L.I. 14-15 star roll. I have lots of K.S.L.I. chaps who I know served in 1915 with the Regiment but later trans. to other Regiments, and who's names are not in K.S.L.I. 14-15 star rolls. Could some kind soul clear up who issued 14-15, the Regiment he severed with at time or last Regiment he served in.

Annette

[bernardmcilwaine]

could they be those men who were wounded,then sent to a training batt then transferred to another regt that needed replacements,there is also ref to many POWs being renumbered and i think they actually renumbered the dead as well,this was happening around 1918,i think the men you are looking at were either returned wounded or POWs,bernard

[CROONAERT]

. Dave did you have any luck ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Annette.

Nothing concrete, but I did find two others with similar numbers and their enlistment dates. I've forgotten the exact details, but both were 5 digit numbers, one was 53982 and he was an 18 year old who enlisted in the 1st Bn in September of 1919. The other was a 54*** number who enlisted in January 1920.

As I said, nothing concrete (there didn't seem to be any "batches" of numbers issued to the ELR battalions as such during WW1 apart from the TF battalions post-1917), but I hope it helps.

Dave.

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Dave

Nothing concrete, but I did find two others with similar numbers and their enlistment dates. I've forgotten the exact details, but both were 5 digit numbers, one was 53982 and he was an 18 year old who enlisted in the 1st Bn in September of 1919.

Thanks Dave

Hi bernard

could they be those men who were wounded,then sent to a training batt then transferred to another regt that needed replacements,there is also ref to many POWs being renumbered and i think they actually renumbered the dead as well,this was happening around 1918,i think the men you are looking at were either returned wounded or POWs

A lot of the men who trans. to the Cheshires were wounded with K.S.L.I. in November 1918, in the very latter stages, so I think they joined Cheshires after war ? Also there are a large number of K.S.L.I. who trans. to South Lancs with five diget numbers starting 34***. Again I think this was after the war, the 6/K.S.L.I. war diary records 231 men left the Battalion on 3rd March 1918 to join 2/South Lancs, also there are lots of 6/K.S.L.I. amoung this number range.

Annette