Grave references on CWGC website

[Lost in Tilloy]

Hi

I'm currently trying to locate my Great-grandfather's lost grave, believing he may at least be listed as an 'Unknown' in the British Cemetery at Tilloy. He was a Private in the 2nd Bn Royal Scots and was KIA on the 9th April 1917 on the first day of the Battle of Arras. One of the forum's members suggested I make an excel map of the cemetery in order to try and understand how it was constructed.

This I have done and although I considered the map a useful tool, sadly I have to say that in doing so there appears to be no great structure in this particular cemetery apart from the odd cluster of men from the same regiment and bigger clusters around various dates.

My main concern was that when I was looking through the CWGC data on line I discovered at least 12 cases where a grave reference was attributed to 2 different people [some not even in the same regiment] and at least 1 case where 3 people have been given the same grave reference.

Could I ask if anyone else has come across such a thing and what, in their experience, was the best way to get the CWGC records sorted out? E-mail? Letter?

[PFF]

Possibly the reason several persons have the same grave reference is that they were buried together in one grave and that it later became impossible to seperate

who was who after the war

[salientguide]

Hi LIT I,m alittle confused by your information. If your Grandfather is an "UNKNOWN" then there will be no information to suggest a burial place as by the fact that he was unidentified no grave or location can be attributed to him. There are markers in many cemeteries with Believed To Be Buried in this location on but again they all refer to named and identified personnel. If an unknown your Grandfather will be named on the appropriate Memorial to the Missing of whichever area he was lost in. Have you entered his name on the CWGC enquiry form on their website. That should identify the cemetery or memorial he is listed on. Why not post his information here and ask a pal to doa SDGW look up that should also give further information. If I may ask why do you think he is buried in that cemetary as an unknown?? Regards SG

[Lost in Tilloy]

Hi

I should have said that his name is recorded on the Arras memorial, but after finding his papers last year everything pointed to him having had a grave initially. All of his personal effects, including his identity discs, were sent back to my Great grandmother. The CWGC also agree he initially had a grave but unfortunately it looks as though it was destroyed sometime after 9th April 1917. The only reference I have to go on now is on his casualty form that states he was killed 'Near Tilloy.'

The War Diary of the 2nd Royal Scots is fairly specific about the route they followed on that day, even mentioning that had moved without loss to an area just to the south of Tilloy. It was from this point they were hit by sniper and machine gun fire. As many graves from this area were later recovered and taken into the Tilloy cemetery I've asked the CWGC whether or not any of the records at least state that they had found a 'Private from the Royal Scots.' If so, I would like to know what plot they laid him in. A long shot I know, but if you don't ask....!

[BRIAN TALMER]

do any casualty rolls exist for the regiment? they often list original burial references.

LEsley

[Lost in Tilloy]

I haven't come across any casualty lists for the regiment as yet. Where would I find them? The NA?

The battalion diary I used was located in Edinburgh Castle and they certainly didn't mention a casualty list.

LIT

[Terry Denham]

You will find many casualties with the same grave numbers.

As stated above, this occurs when there are multiple burials in the same grave.

[salientguide]

Hi LIT thanks for sharing information. I think your hypothesis is correct many known burials were lost in the more mobile fighting of 1918, my website instances a similar loss of a friends Uncles burial in the Salient. If a body had been recovered unidentified but even with partial regimental identification then the stone usually records that in different ways, Unknown Scottish Soldier, Unknown soldier, Royal Scots etc. The best thing is probably go to the cemetery and choose an unknown grave and just let it represent your Great Grandfather and all his comrades. You may not identify a definate grave but he undoubtedly rests there or thereabouts. Good luck SG

[leigh]

LIT,

You mention that the CWGC agree he initialy had a grave. What info did they agree? Or what info did they give you to suggets this?

The CWGC site explains which were the original graves in 1917 (390) and the ones later created by battle field clearance.

As suggested abouve, if you visit the cemetery you will find graves to 'A soldier of the *****' this will further reduce the possible graves he is possibly in.

I have to say though the chances of locating the gave itself are very slim.

Best regards

Leigh

[Sue Light]

You will find many casualties with the same grave numbers.

As stated above, this occurs when there are multiple burials in the same grave.

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Terry

Are there any differences then between the graves where a headstone has two [or more] names, but have the same grave reference, and those that have two [or more] names and carry different grave references?

Sue

[Terry Denham]

Sue

In the second case you cite, the men should have individual graves although sharing a headstone. I have not noticed this circumstance personally, though. Do you have an example?

You also get men sharing graves (with the same grave numbers) but with separate headstones - making the row of graves shorter than the row of headstones!

[Lost in Tilloy]

Hi all

Many thanks for helping sort out this conundrum for me re Tilloy cemetery.

LIT

[BRIAN TALMER]

do any casualty rolls exist for the regiment? they often list original burial references.

LEsley

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County records office or regimental museum may have them. You could also try emailing CWGC for the reference

regards

Lesley