1916 Transfers out of Bedfordshires

[Stebie9173]

There has been a topic which touched on this before but the discussion headed off in a different direction...

Anyway, on reviewing the men of the 6th Northhamptonshires from various sources, there seems to be a rather large transfer of men from the Bedfordshires to the Northamptonshires. Many went to the 6th Northants, and I believe more than a few to the 7th & 8th.

86 men on SDGW with numbers in the 43000s in the Northamptonshire Regiment are men with numbers in the 20000s (mainly around 26000) formerly with the Bedfordshires. This accounts for about 5% of the battalions casualties in the entire war.

The MICs give 351 men who match the criteria "Northamptonshire AND Bedfordshire" and numbers "43???". Perhaps not all the men in question but a good proportion, no doubt...

The first record of these men dying in the 6th Northants is at Thiepval on 26-9-16.

This seems an awfully large transfer of men, especially that early on in the war, and since they are shown on the MICs as Bedfordshires they are from active units and not the reserves to a large extent.

Does anyone know why this transfer occured and exactly when?

I would think it may have been after 1-7-16 and the Northants battle at Trones Wood on 14-7-16, but the 7/Bedfordshires where obviously in action then, too and moreso on the 1st. So, probably, the transfer was not from the 7th Battalion?

Thanks,

Steve.

[jim_davies]

Steve,

There's a few similar transfers I've come across with the Lincs. The first largescale transfer I've come across is early Sept 1916, when a group of 350-400 men (both TF and NA) crossed to France, and were re-badged into the 1st KORL a few days later. A large number were to die within the month. Haven't got my notes with me, but seem to remember that when they were renumbered it was alphabetically.

On their MICs both Lincolnshire and Royal Lancs appear (I've checked in detail about a third) although they were only "Lincolns" in France for 3-4 days at most.

As the war progress the initial concentration in the 1st KORL appears to have been diluted with men been gradually transferred into other KORL battalions. I have a similar large scale transfer to the Warwicks later in the year.

Hope this helps a little,

Jim

[Raster Scanning]

Steve.

Similar to Jim, I suspect that they were indeed from Bedfordshire Rgt training units and sent to France as Bedfords.

Transfer being made to the Northamptonshires in France before they were sent to an operational Bedfordshire battalion.

They would have been replacements for the 1st July period losses.

It is inconceivable that operational units that were severly depleted, would transfer large numbers of experienced men to bolster other units.

Cheers

John.

[Stebie9173]

Jim,

Now that you mention alphabetically, I did notice that with the Bedfords men. They were not quite excatly alpabetically but the numbering was done so that if you line them up numeriaclly the first letters of the surnames are in alphabetic groups, as if the men were sorted into groups of letters and then numbered "randomly".

Since none of these men seem to have died at Trones Wood on 14-7-1916 when the Battalion lost 50% casualties (Killed, missing and wounded, not all dead), and then SDGW lists some dying at Thiepval, the transfer is presumably between the two dates.

Many of them seem to be from the Hertfordshire area, with a good scattering of Huntingdonshire and, of course, Bedfordshire men.

It certainly would make sense for them to be transfers of "newish" recruits.

A look at some of their MICs is in order I think, as their entitlement to the 1914-15 Star would indicate their experience or not.

Thanks to you both for the input.

Steve.

[steve fuller]

Many of them seem to be from the Hertfordshire area, with a good scattering of Huntingdonshire and, of course, Bedfordshire men.

It certainly would make sense for them to be transfers of "newish" recruits.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Prob not helping but the Herts link to the Beds is understandable i guess, as the 2 counties were merged later of course, & I have seen many Herts chaps in teh Beds myself.

And the Hunts Territorials were amalgamated into the Beds 1908 (the shake up). Although they were moved back into their own County units (Hunts cyclists etc) in early 1914, there is a link there between the Counties it seems to me.

That "early" in the war, i imagine there were still grouped "relatively" close together, as I believe the scattering of men between other units started early 1917 on the whole? Wrong to generalise f course, but if it helps ...

Like I said, prob no use whatsoever, but there appears to be connections there, whether real or purely coincidental I couldnt say Im afraid.

Oh, and if groups of them originally hailed from the 5th Beds (Terriers), it may suggest a deliberate organisational move, as chunks of the 5th were transferred to French units in early 1916 (after Gallipoli), and the 5th recieved replacements of "old and wounded men, mainly from the 1st & 2nd Btns" to make their numbers up. CO 5th beds wasnt too pleased with his gooduns going & being given "unfit" men. My Gt Uncle Hack was one such man, moved into the 8th from the 5th and other men on his medal rolls were transferred onto other units not in Egypt too.

[Stebie9173]

Cheers, Steve.

I'll do a little bit of research at the NA next time I'm there, but it's not a burning issue, just thought someone like yourself may have encountered it before.

Steve.

[jayne w]

Steve and Steve,

Would have recommended Steve Fuller as a Beds expert if he hadnt already replied..

Steve F, when I read this thought you meant French army as opposed to British units in France - how dim am I ? Dont answer that one!!

"Oh, and if groups of them originally hailed from the 5th Beds (Terriers), it may suggest a deliberate organisational move, as chunks of the 5th were transferred to French units in early 1916 (after Gallipoli)"

Jayne W

[gporta]

Those connections are interesting: I have a group of 46 men with numbers over 48??? listed as Bedfordshires in MIC (all of them previously in 2/1st Hunts Cyclists); some of them were situated in 2nd and 4th Bedfordshire battalions (through MIC and CWGC); they were drafted to France in August 1918. More than half a dozen of these ended the war in the 7th Northamptonshires, and some others in 7th Northamptonshires.

I don't know how the connection worked but there seems to be there, I'd say.

Gloria