How many Battalions

[Captain Dave]

Just out of idle curioisity, does any one know which UK Regiment produced the most Bns during WW1? Even home service Bns count in this question.

Cheers

Dave.

[Wienand Drenth]

Hello Dave,

This is a nice one. From James' British Regiments I have the following big regiments:

Northumberland Fusiliers: 51

Royal Fusiliers: 47

Liverpool Regiment: 49

Middlesex Regiment: 49

Manchester Regiment: 44

and last but not least: The London Regiment with 88! battalions.

Cheers,

Wienand

[Steven Broomfield]

If you discount the London regt as not really a regiment in the accepted meaning of the word, but took the 16 battalions raised by the Battalions 1st-4th London Regiment and added them to the Royal Fusiliers (of whom the 1st-4th were a part), then I suppose you could stretch it and give 63 to the RF!

[GrandsonMichael]

What is the (accepted) definition of Regiment?

Cheers,

Michael

[Captain Dave]

For the purpose of this exercise, I would consider a Regiment to be one in name only. I'm not defining a Regiment as a certain sized body of troops commanded by a Colonel with a Regimental Depot. I'm realy interested in how many Battalions were spawned in that Regiments name. I think a Battalion is a measuarable concept and easier to think around.

So far the results are quite amazing!

[Steven Broomfield]

What is the (accepted) definition of Regiment?

Cheers,

Michael

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would say that, in British Army terms, an infantry regiment is an administrative unit containing a collection of sub-units (battalions). These battalions are created and disbanded as and when required, but the regimental organisation for recruiting, training and administering these battalions stays in place. For cavalry it is slightly different in that the regiment is also the 'fighting' unit, although a depot of some description stays to administer recruits (though I think this is often run between several regiments).

The London Regiment is different, in that the battalions were a collection of independent units, and the title 'London Regiment' was more for administrative convenience, and the true central uniier were the Territorial Associations of London.

Artillery, Engineers and Corsp are similar to the infantry, I would say, in that the regiment had sub-units - squadrons, batteries, transport columns, etc.

How's that for a start?

[bernardmcilwaine]

dave,i would say the northumberland regt is the biggest,the london regt was a group of TA batts with no parent regt to associate with, so they were designated as the london regt in the army list,a lot of them affiliated themselves to a parent regt during the war,as steve said,the 1,2,3 and 4 were royal fusiliers batts,the 5 was the rifle brigade,others like the london scottish[14th] and the london irish[18th]were assoc with scottish and irish regts,the 22nd+24th were the queens and the 28th were OTC,there are a couple of others but you can see what ime saying,the northumberlands are the biggest,bernard

[GrandsonMichael]

How's that for a start?

I think that's quite clear, thanks.

Cheers,

Michael

[PhilB]

I see what you mean, Bernard:-

1908 The London Regiment

formed in the Territorial Force to encompass 28 existing volunteer battalions in the Greater London and Middlesex region [see London Regt in 1908], but without a HQ or other administrative cohesion

1916 battalions affiliated with regular regiments, but without change of battalion titles

Does that mean that the London Regt in WW1 was a "real" regiment or not? Hmmmm..... Phil B

[Steven Broomfield]

I see what you mean, Bernard:-

1908 The London Regiment

formed in the Territorial Force to encompass 28 existing volunteer battalions in the Greater London and Middlesex region [see London Regt in 1908], but without a HQ or other administrative cohesion 

1916 battalions affiliated with regular regiments, but without change of battalion titles

Does that mean that the London Regt in WW1 was a "real" regiment or not? Hmmmm.....          Phil B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I don't think they were a 'real' regiment - there was no cross-posting, no prmotion structure between battalions, no 'central' organisation (other than the TF Associations), so not a 'real' regiment.

Good soldiers, though!

[SMG65]

Although credited on the Army List with having 37 battalions during the Great War, The Durham Light Infantry actually had 43. The other 6 involved amalgamating all third line battalions into one, but they existed seperately and the 23 & 24 Bns were transferred to other battalions, but technically although not formed, they existed.

Also the 4 battalions of the Tyneside Scottish and 4 battalions of the Tyneside Irish recruited 60% of their soldiers south of the Tyne in County Durham. Should they have not been affiliated with the DLI instead of the Northumberland Fusiliers?

In the Second World War, 12 Bn DLI became 12 Bn (Tyneside Scottish) DLI and later the whole battalion became part of the Black Watch, although 80% of the troops were originally DLI, (I bet that went down well). Are there cases in the Great War of whole battalions changing regiment?

SEAN

[PhilB]

Are there cases in the Great War of whole battalions changing regiment?

SEAN

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are the Yeomanry that became infantry. eg 1/1st denbighshire Yeo became 24th (Denbighshire Yeo) Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers in Feb 1917.

[Wienand Drenth]

There are the Yeomanry that became infantry. eg 1/1st denbighshire Yeo became 24th (Denbighshire Yeo) Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers in Feb 1917.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And the 2nd Reserve battalions (original Fourth New Army) that became Training Reserve in 1916. Some of those became the 51st - 53rd Bns of line regiments in late 1917.

[Captain Dave]

Thank you for the information chaps. From my perspective I wanted to point out to people (in person, not on the forum) the sheer scale of numbers involved and the amunt of units that were raised during the Great War within the UK.

In NZ we tend to focus in a pariochial manner on the one Division we fielded, without realising that it was but a drop in the bucket so to speak in regards to the amount of British Divisions/Bns formed. By showing how many Bns one Regt could form, it also shows the numerical difference between NZ Regiments and UK ones.

So thanks, I will now expouse my new found knowledge at the earliest available opportunity.

[bernardmcilwaine]

i agree with you on the "not a real regt bit",and your right about them being good scrappers,i have never figured out these batts,they are bloody hard to research in some aspects,the easiest way for them to have been titled at the time,would have been to have called them a corps,EG 1st,2nd 3rd london rifles or something on those line,they are just as complicated in ww2 when some were turned into AA,AT,or engineer units,bernard

[sandyford]

Should they have not been affiliated with the DLI instead of the Northumberland Fusiliers?

SEAN

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No.

Kate

[PhilB]

In NZ we tend to focus in a pariochial manner on the one Division we fielded, without realising that it was but a drop in the bucket so to speak in regards to the amount of British Divisions/Bns formed. By showing how many Bns one Regt could form, it also shows the numerical difference between NZ Regiments and UK ones.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But the NZ contribution was, as a % of population, quite considerable, Cap`n! Phil B

[Steven Broomfield]

i agree with you on the "not a real regt bit",and your right about them being good scrappers,i have never figured out these batts,they are bloody hard to research in some aspects,the easiest way for them to have been titled at the time,would have been to have called them a corps,EG 1st,2nd 3rd london rifles or something on those line,they are just as complicated in ww2 when some were turned into AA,AT,or engineer units,bernard

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I bumped into a really nice Memorial recently which sums it up. It is Kennington Park, and is originally to the (if I remember correctly) 23rd Londons, 1914-18. However, added for 1939-45 is the 7th Queens (which the 23rd London became). To add to the fun, the 10th Bn (Hackney) became the 5th Battalion, Royal Berkshire regiment!

[Desmond7]

Wholesale change of Regt.

North Irish Horse became 9th (NIH) Royal Irish Fusiliers in 1917.

Plus I think the Royal Irish Rifles had 20 battalions at one stage ... the last three or four were training units.

Des