Lost in Tilloy Posted 9 June , 2005 Share Posted 9 June , 2005 Hi I'm just new to this site and would like some help on the following. I've recently managed to trace my Great-granddad's war papers at Kew and have been trying to find out what happened to him. His name is on the Arras memorial as a soldier with no known grave. However his war papers, and now the Commonwealth Grave Commission, agree that this was not the case originally. He was killed in action on 9/4/1917 whilst serving with the 2nd Royal Scots as part of the 8th Brigade, 3rd Division. The 8th Brigade were attacking the 'Brown Line' via Tilloy-les-Mofflaines, the 'Harp' and then the Feuchy Line. The Brigade took loses at Tilloy because of sniper fire but were eventually devestated by machine-gun fire from a place called 'Church Works' south of Feuchy Chapel. My Great-granddad,Private 3713 William Kitchen, was killed somewhere on this field and all his personal effects, including his identity discs, were sent to my Great-grandmother. The CGC do think he was originally buried in a temporary site but that this was later lost. His Army Form B.103 simply states he was killed 'Near Tilloy' then ends with 'B213 09. 17.4.17.' Apart from the date at the end, does it mean anything? I also know that Tilloy cemetery has over 600 'unknown' graves but does anyone know who I can contact to talk about where these soldiers were initially found and whether any of them are Royal Scots. Finally, I read an article about a family who tried to trace their son who died in the same conflict around 1920. They were given a Trench Map reference of 51b. N3. b. 5[or 7]. 3. Can anyone tell me what map this may be referring to and how I can get a copy? Any help welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 9 June , 2005 Share Posted 9 June , 2005 hi tilloy,if you go on the cwgc website and put in your gt g/fathers details and bring up his page,at the bottom there is a set of buttons one is for those buried there another is for the plan of the cem and the other will tell you where the graves were brought in from,bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogal Posted 9 June , 2005 Share Posted 9 June , 2005 Hi, The map references you are talking about are trench maps - to get an idea of these, do a search on the forum for trench maps. The Western Front Association website goes into detail about how to match a reference to a map. His original grave is missing, yet he may well be one of the many now at the cemetery. You may well just keep coming back to this time and time again. I think you should accept this before you begin to look in any more detail. Also, the 9th April 1917 was the first day of the Battle of Arras - many, many men were killed on that day, and many unknown soldiers' headstones will hold this date of death. It might be possible, if you are very lucky, to trace his grave down to a possibility of ten or less. The cemetery might have a row of Unknowns from the Scots Regiment in the cemetery from the 9th April. You or someone else would have to go to the cemetery to see for yourself. However, if there are sixty unknown Royal Scots for example, and there were one hundred and sixty casualties from that battalion that day, you will find that is about as much as you can do - you could possibly note down any completely unkown graves that may be amongst them and subtract these from the one hundred and sixty in order to narrow the odds - but then we are now in the realms of guesswork. Sorry if that's a bit of a bleak answer, but that's what it can come down to. I hope that someone with a little more knowledge can give you a better way of doing this - I'd like to hear it too regards doogal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 9 June , 2005 Share Posted 9 June , 2005 hi tilloy,dougals right,it will be all down to guess work,but you carry on with your quest,you never know what can happen,and good luck,and dont forget,theres a whole bunch of folks on here who will gladly help,bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 9 June , 2005 Share Posted 9 June , 2005 The Western Front Association website goes into detail about how to match a reference to a map.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> This site does too! http://www.1914-1918.net/trench_maps.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogal Posted 9 June , 2005 Share Posted 9 June , 2005 This site does too! http://www.1914-1918.net/trench_maps.htm <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I missed that one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogal Posted 9 June , 2005 Share Posted 9 June , 2005 'B213 09. 17.4.17.' Hi Whilst part of this looks like a date (17.4.17), can anyone say what exactly this bit refers to: B213 09 The whole thing looks to me like an initial grave reference note - but who generated it, who filed it? soldier 213 from the 9th April, buried on the 17th April 1917 ? Can anyone take this beyond guesswork? regards doogal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 9 June , 2005 Share Posted 9 June , 2005 hiya dougal,thats what i was wondering,is it a grave ref,i cant see 2 geniuses being wrong bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 9 June , 2005 Share Posted 9 June , 2005 dougal,if it is a date,then it loks like he was found or buried on that date,but that would make it 8 days after he was killed,if your right and it is a grave ref then tilloy may have summat to go on,bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogal Posted 9 June , 2005 Share Posted 9 June , 2005 dougal,if it is a date,then it looks like he was found or buried on that date,but that would make it 8 days after he was killed,if your right and it is a grave ref then tilloy may have summat to go on,bernard <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If it is, and can be linked to a map reference, then it may be the location of the battlefield burial - though as the CWGC and tilloy say, this has almost certainly now been lost. However I think this is worth chasing through. - there is a similar number, beginning with "b" on my gt grandfather's records, and it too is located after the KIA note on his record. The problem I have is that it is barely legible - I have already spent a great deal of time at the NA just rying to figure it out (photocopying obliterates what trace remains) All I can make out is "B3514" ....and as I wrote that some sense came - burial 35 1st april??? I'm not kidding I've been looking at that for a year! I shall have to check it out further, but in the first instance, it fits with his KIA date of 27th March. Can anyone confirm that we are on the right track at least as far as Tilloy's details go? regards doogal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 9 June , 2005 Share Posted 9 June , 2005 dougal,idont know owt about this numbers thing,but it doesnt fit in with tilloys numbers, b213 09. 17.4.17, ican see what your saying so tilloys would be,burial 213,9th,1917, april but whats the last 17 for,you might be distracting yourself away from your original theory,which could be the right one[grave ref]ime just whittering on mate, take no notice,but its worth having a go at like you say,could get interesting this,bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 9 June , 2005 Share Posted 9 June , 2005 dougal,idont know owt about this numbers thing,but it doesnt fit in with tilloys numbers, b213 09. 17.4.17, ican see what your saying so tilloys would be,burial 213,9th,1917, april but whats the last 17 for,you might be distracting yourself away from your original theory,which could be the right one[grave ref]ime just whittering on mate, take no notice,but its worth having a go at like you say,could get interesting this,bernard Check out this previous thread: B.213 B.213 is an Army Form, nothing to to with a map reference I'm sorry to tell you. According to forum member, Chris Henschke, the B213 was the Field Return and "was submitted weekly and listed Killed in Action, Missing, Wounded, Gassed, NYDN, missing as well as transfers postings and promotions." Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogal Posted 10 June , 2005 Share Posted 10 June , 2005 B.213 is an Army Form, nothing to to with a map reference I'm sorry to tell you. Oh well, worth a try. thanks for pointing us at this thread regards doogal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray hoggart Posted 11 June , 2005 Share Posted 11 June , 2005 Presumably AF B213 were not retained and stored? Would be a good read if they were! Ray7155 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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