Peter Beckett Posted 5 July , 2003 Share Posted 5 July , 2003 On the trench map 10-28NE3-7A-140917-Gheluvent, Polygon Wood has what appears to be some type of training track, near the Butte end. (It also shows a trench straight down the middle). I am just curious as it was there before the battle. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 5 July , 2003 Share Posted 5 July , 2003 Hello, The horse race track was there for the School of the Gendarmerie in Ieper. They learned to ride a horse in Polygon Wood before WW1. I believe soldiers of the 53th Brigade (18th Division) organized bets on this race track on 31 July 1917 (they were supposed to capture it). They didn't know the wood itself would only be taken almost two months later. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 5 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 5 July , 2003 Jan, thats interesting. The School of the Gendarmerie: was that mounted Police? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 5 July , 2003 Share Posted 5 July , 2003 Gendarmerie meant State Police, they were mounted in those days. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 5 July , 2003 Share Posted 5 July , 2003 Wasn't it also known as Racecourse Wood on some maps? Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 5 July , 2003 Share Posted 5 July , 2003 Peter - there are two very good photographs of the Butte in Sir Ernest Swinton's "Twenty Years After", vol II pp1010 & 1011. One shows the Butte post war, after the cemetery had been completed and the 5th Australian Division Memorial installed - the other show it as it was after it's capture in 1917 - very badly knocked about and very little evidence of the remains of the wood itself. This second photo also appears to have been taken from (what was to become) the cemetery side of the Butte, looking west to east towards map grid J.10.a.6.8. ( ) - This photo is attributed as sourced from the Imperial War Museum. Swinton refers to the wood as the pre-was "race-course of Ypres." regards - Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 6 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 6 July , 2003 Tom, Looks like I will owe you more than a couple of pints. Where can I get a copy of the 2 photos? Is the book still available or likely to be in a local library in UK or better still near Chatham? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 6 July , 2003 Share Posted 6 July , 2003 Where can I get a copy of the 2 photos? Is the book still available or likely to be in a local library in UK or better still near Chatham? You may struggle a little, Peter, so here you are.... Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 6 July , 2003 Share Posted 6 July , 2003 ...and... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 6 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 6 July , 2003 Dave, terrific! Looks like I might have to buy a brewery to repay all my kind Pals. (probably McMullens in Hertford as I am rather partial to their AK drop) See you soon Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 6 July , 2003 Share Posted 6 July , 2003 Peter - the 1917 photo of the Butte which Dave has kindly posted (I'll resist any expression of envy at someone who has technology which actually works !) is attributed to the IWM but unfortunately doesnt carry the "Q" number reference by which this collection is now indexed. Maybe there is someone out there who knows what the "Q" number is, which would allow you to order a copy of the original direct from IWM - or it may be worthwhile getting in touch with the IWM photographic department and seeing if they can identify it, they are generally very helpful. - Suggest you maybe send a print of Dave's scan, or you could possibly e-mail it to the dept, - either way with a full description of what the photo shows / when it was taken etc. Contact them via > http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/photos.htm Otherwise you may want to make a search of the photographic archive yourself when you get to the UK this week - if you do then be aware that you MUST make an appointment in advance - and you should gear yourself up for some lateral thinking, because the WW1 photo's are not always indexed in a logical way. regards - Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 6 July , 2003 Share Posted 6 July , 2003 Thought you might be interested in this Operation Order for the 1st South Staffords. They made an attack on 4th October 1917, from Polygon Wood. The Butte (Mound) is mentioned. Operation orders: Part of a general attack by 2nd Army, the objective is the Red Line on the 91st Brigade front. The 8th Devons (20th Brigade) will be on the left, the 3/4th Queens (21st Division) on the right. The 22nd Manchesters will pass through the battalion at Z+110, and will capture the Blue Line. The barrage will be 150 yards ahead, remaining 3 minutes then moving forward at 200 yards in 8 minutes. It will then move to the Red protective barrage (200 yards in front of the Red Line) at 100 yards in 6 minutes, and then to Blue at 100 yards in 8. The barrage will include smoke shells to indicate that we have gained Red and Blue. If the wind is from the SW to NE, a smoke screen will be placed on Gheluvelt and Becelaere. A dummy barrage will be fired on Gheluvelt by the 5th Divisional Artillery. By Z-60, the 1st South Staffords will form up on a tape from J.10.b.1.8 to b.1.10, and will be closed up to a depth 120 yards front to rear. The form up will be gradual and silent, under cover of posts and patrols. At zero the ranks will follow the creeping barrage, D Coy to right front, A to left front. B and C Coys will support and mop up. The Coy boundary will be J.10.b.12.40 - b.00.45 - b.90.70. After the 22nd Manchesters have passed, Coys will consolidate, with special attention to be paid to Jolting Houses at J.11.a.7.5. two Vickers machine guns will takje up the latter position. One Stokes gun will be placed at the disposal of the battalion. An advanced report centre will be set up, by 2/Lt G.A.C.Sheffield, with scouts, 6 signallers and 4 runners. Visual receiving will be at The Mound (Battalion HQ) at J.10.a.7.8. Red flares will be lit on the first and second objectives, when a contact aeroplane fires a white light or sounds a horn. The latter will carry a black board on the left lower wing, and 3 broad bands on the body. SOS will be a rifle grenade parachute showing red over green over yellow. A daylight red mortar signal should be reserved only for grave emergencies. Lt F.Robinson MC will be attached to the 3/4th Queens for liaison. Regimetal Aid Post will be at The Mound . Concentration orders: Relieve the 1st RWF tonight. The Battalion will parade on the road in front of the captive balloon in H30a. Move off crossroads at H.30.a.35.80 at 0300. On arriving at Hooge Crater, guides will be picked up. Platoons to move at 50 yards intervals. Tea on halt. Lewis guns off limbers at same. Those not going are to report to Major D.C.Twiss outside orderly room at 1430. Equipment: rifle and equipment less pack. 220 rounds SAA. Haversack and one day ration and iron ration. Ground sheet, box respirator, PH helmet. 2 sandbags. Full bottles. The RE dump will be at The Mound. Water in captured territory will not be consumed until it has been examined by a medical officer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 6 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 6 July , 2003 Tom and Chris, (in order of reply, not rank ) Tom, I have the contact phone number and will be following that "avenue". I will have my laptop which has all my data on it, also have printed out both photos. Chris, thats really great! from having nothing for the last 4 years about William Beckett and considering he was in the RE, I have to keep pinching myself to believe that I will be at the Butte in 3 weeks time. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 6 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 6 July , 2003 Hows this for a "what if"? If my grandfather William Leyland, 22 Manchesters hadn't been wounded at High Wood on 14 July 1916 and my grandfather William Beckett hadn't been wounded at the Butte on 1 Oct 1917, then they might have met on 4th Oct 1917 at the Butte, 28 years before Mum and Dad were married in 1945 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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