Plymouth Hoe Memorial

[historydavid]

Does anyone have names and details of the ships listed?

David

[adrianjohn]

Try this web page: it has some information and might lead you on to more datail.

www.remembering.org.uk/plymouth_naval_memorial.htm

adrian

[historydavid]

Thank you for the link Adrian,

Unfortunately the site is limited to Cheltonians lost in the war.

It does however refer to the Chatham Naval Memorial for which I also require ship info.

The only outside link leads to the CWGC site which does not give the info I require.

Best wishes

David

[Jim Strawbridge]

David, However you view it, it will be a long, laborous job. You can go into the CWGC web site under "cemetery", type in Plymouth, click on Plymouth Memorial and all of the names on the memorial can be found by clicking on Cemetery Reports. But to find the ships of the 23214 names produced can only be got at by clicking on each individual name. Better to try and get hold of the CWGC Registers for the Plymouth Memorial but, again, the names will only be in alphabetical order but at least the ships will be easier to see. Or find someone with a digital camera who lives locally to snap the panels. Or visit yourself and jot them down. Or see if Terry Denham, of this list, has any ideas. Or the CWGC may be able to sort, select and do a print run off their computer during a quiet period. Now I've run out of ideas.

[larneman]

Better to try and get hold of the CWGC Registers for the Plymouth Memorial . Or see if Terry Denham, of this list, has any ideas. Or the CWGC may be able ....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The CWGC can supply it on a CDrom for around 30 pounds sterling in WORD rtf format.

If you send it to me I can convert to an Excel speadsheet, free.

Or I can extract the ship names for you, also free.

greetings

Liam

[historydavid]

Thank you for your advice Jim. It does sound like a long winded process, bearing in mind that I would like to obtain similar info for Chatham Memorial as well.

Thanks for your offer Liam, I might take you up on it in the future if all else fails.

It seems strange that the CWGC does not make such info available on their website. You can get all the names for a particular memorial or cemetry but not the ship they served on.

The Portsmouth Memorial, for Naval personel from the town and surrounding area, which I suspect is not controled by the CWGC, has an associated website which does give the names of ships.

I think I will try posting on the Cemetries and Memorials section to see if anyone can help me.

Best wishes

David

[Jim Strawbridge]

David, I don't know why you think that the Portsmouth Memorial is not managed by the CWGC. It most definitely is. The CWGC is not interested in ships but in men (and women) who died whilst serving their country. The purpose of the CWGC is "to mark and maintain the graves of the members of the forces of the Commonwealth who were killed in the two World Wars, to build memorials to those who have no known grave and to keep records and registers, including, after the Second World War, a record of the Civilian War Dead". The CWGC registers and website are not produced for us researchers but for family members to find their loved ones grave (if there is one) and as a record in line with their purpose of being. The fact that us researchers find the registers and website so useful is a side event so far as they are concerned. But I have to say that because they have the resources they have always been very helpful to the rest of us. If you have found a website listing the ships on the Portsmouth Memorial then someone likeminded to you has already done the task that you want to do. But what are you trying to achieve? The ships on the memorials will only give you those from which someone died. There will be some where someone died and was buried at sea but the ship remained in tact. There will be some ships that were sunk but all were saved and therefore will not figure on the memorials. If it is the ships that were attacked or sunk that you are interested in then I would recommend British Vessels Lost At Sea 1914-18 and it's sister, British Vessels Lost At Sea 1939-45. I may have a copy of the former tucked away somewhere if interested.

[historydavid]

Thanks for advising me, Jim, but I discovered my error later last night from a post on Cemetries and Memorials.

I have BVLAS 1914-18 (covering warships, merchantmen and fishing vessels) but it is thought to be incomplete.

I try to obtain lists of ships sunk or damaged from wherever available, so that I can check them off against the database chronology I am preparing, in the hope that a new name will be found.

The other way, of course, is to access as many books as possible, a process I have started, but even these are incomplete, often referring to a U-boat's activities as "sank three steamers".

Best wishes

David

[Greenwoodman]

I had a vague memory of this being online, and a quick Google found it:-

Plymouth Naval Memorial

[kin47]

"The other way, of course, is to access as many books as possible, a process I have started, but even these are incomplete, often referring to a U-boat's activities as "sank three steamers".

This is certainly a source, but you must be very wary. Errors and mistaken facts seem to go on for perpetuity and are repeated in countless books.

Whenever possible, primary sources should be consulted, but admittedly this adds to your research. The National Archives (former PRO) has much of what you seek, but even there many documents were created at the time of the event and omit vital data.

I guess what I am saying is your task is not easy, but good luck on your pursuit.

don

[historydavid]

Greenwoodman, thanks for the link but unfortunately it only lists ships for 1914. Interesting site though, there are photographs of all the panels for both 1st & 2nd WWs, which clearly show that ship names are not included.

Best wishes

David

[Michael Lowrey]

I have BVLAS 1914-18 (covering warships, merchantmen and fishing vessels) but it is thought to be incomplete.

BVLAS doesn't contain information on British warships that were damaged but not sunk. It also only lists merchant ships and fishing vessels thought to have been sunk by enemy action. Sometimes the RN's wartime knowledge was incomplete and a U-boat sank a vessel with all hands (often a stop and scuttle wit the crew not being rescued after getting into their boats); most of these cases have been identified postwar and are noted in Lloyd's War Losses.

Also, as someone who has worked through many U-boat war diaries -- which of course include information on the ships they sunk -- I can state that there aren't very many if any British ships sunk that aren't in BVLAS or Lloyd's War Losses.

I try to obtain lists of ships sunk or damaged from wherever available, so that I can check them off against the database chronology I am preparing, in the hope that a new name will be found.

The other way, of course, is to access as many books as possible, a process I have started, but even these are incomplete, often referring to a U-boat's activities as "sank three steamers".

Really, the solution isn't isn't more books, it's having the right books: BVLAS, Lloyd's War Losses, and the Germany official history series, Der Krieg zur See, and especially, the volumes on the U-boat war against merchant shipping, Handelskrieg mit U-Booten by Admiral Arno Spindler. In degree of difficulty to obtain, these are easy and inexpensive, easy but pricey, and extremely rare and extremely pricey, especially for the later war volumes. Beyond that, you would have to engage in serious research using German and British primary sources.

Also, on your "three steamer" problem, remember, all those steamers need not be British, even if an action took place in theEnglish Channel or North Sea.

Given the sheer scope of losses -- U-boats sank 6,600 or so vessels of all nationalities, the number is 7,500 or so when ships damaged or taken as a prize are included -- the last few cases are extremely difficult to come to grips with.

Best wishes,

Michael

[historydavid]

Michael, you have me "dead to rights" on BVLAS for Naval vessels, they are definitely not included, only merchants and fishing vessels.

I should have referred to British Naval Vessels Lost at Sea 1914-18, a web document I obtained from www.naval-history.net/WW1RNLosses some time ago.

Also neither document covers damaged vessels, but I didn't say they did. In fact they can be difficult to find on the open web.

When I stated that BVLAS was thought to be incomplete I was echoing a statement that I believe you have made several times in your posts.

The topic relates to British vessels so I thought it unnecessary to mention that I am also interested in all foreign vessels as well.

Best wishes

David

[Michael Lowrey]

Michael, you have me "dead to rights" on BVLAS for Naval vessels, they are definitely not included, only merchants and fishing vessels.

I should have referred to British Naval Vessels Lost at Sea 1914-18, a web document I obtained from www.naval-history.net/WW1RNLosses some time ago.

Also neither document covers damaged vessels, but I didn't say they did. In fact they can be difficult to find on the open web.

When I stated that BVLAS was thought to be incomplete I was echoing a statement that I believe you have made several times in your posts.

David,

OK, I think I see the issue now. The naval-history.net site seems to be down at the moment, but as I recall its treatment of BVLAS was incomplete. In its book version, BVLAS combines two seperate works, one on naval vessels and one on merchant and fishing vessels. The warship listing does not include damaged vessels, and that does represent a research challenge.

The print BVLAS was three listings on merchant/fishing ships: "Merchant Vessels Captured or Sunk", "Fishing Vessels Captured or Sunk," and "Merchant Vessels Attack" ("British Merchant Vessels Damaged Or Molested by The Enemy But Not Sunk.") The damaged/attacked listing was not on the web. It is quite useful and may well be a big chunk of what you're after.

As an aside, it is not always obvious whether a vessel was merely "molested" or actually damaged -- often you have an entry which list an vessel attack by gunfire from a submarine and "saved" "by gunfire." Some of these ships were damaged, some weren't. I personally use a standard of torpedo and mine hits (duds don't count), failed stop and scuttle attempts, gunfire attacks that result in lives lost, a ship beached or towed in as being damaged. Lloyd's War Losses also includes a list of vessels damaged.

BVLAS does not include the few fishing vessels that were damaged, but Lloyd's War Lossesgenerally includes these. Or at least in the cases I have come across so far in U-boat KTBs, they show up in Lloyd's.

FWIW, the data challenges on other countries are much worse that what you're dealing with the British.

Best wishes,

Michael

[historydavid]

Michael, thanks for that post, it will prove very useful as I wasn't aware that there was a BVLAS in print covering merchants vessels damaged but not sunk.

Best wishes

David