Jane Manley Posted 31 May , 2005 Share Posted 31 May , 2005 hello I hope someone can help me with finding info about my grandfather, Sidney Manley 158206, sapper in Royal Engineers.(died 1950 so I never knew him). I think I have his discharge papers contained in a red folder. In them it says "conduct very satisfactory, mine gassed on active service BEF 7-7-16, a very good miner".Signed by W? Holloway Lt (rubber stamped "for col. l/c R.E.RECORDS") I would really like to know where he served and what happened on 7th July? Older family members say he served on the Somme and was chlorine gassed while digging a tunnel into enemy lines, they heard the Germans underground and were going to pull back, but their officer told them to carry on and they were all gassed or worse! He hardly ever spoke about the war but deeply resented the young ,inexperienced (his opinion) officer who knew very little about mining and the loss of so much life, especially when his older sons were in WW2. In civilian life he was a coal miner in the Rhonnda with his brothers, having moved from Hemyock in Devon (born Hemyock 1879). I presume his brothers (all older)may also have enlisted too? (all living Llantrissant / Tonyrefail in Glamorgan). What do these dates mean ? listed in folder as home 23.5.16 to 8.6.16 BEF 9.6.16 to 12.7.16 home 13.7.16 to 27.11.16 BEF 28.11.16 to 10.1.17 home 11.1.17 to 20.9.17 I have looked at a few sites but am finding it a bit confusing. If anyone could explain any of this to me (in simple terms!) I would be very grateful. thanks Jane (1st post!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Johnson Posted 31 May , 2005 Share Posted 31 May , 2005 Hi Jane, Welcome to the Forum. The link below will take you to your grandfathers online Medal Index Card. You can purchase this for £3.50 from the National Archives and download it straight away. This will tell you what medals he was entitled to and may give some other reference details. Manley - MIC Home means the dates he served in the UK and BEF (British Expeditionary Force) are the dates he served overseas. The dates suggest that after his gassing he was sent home for treatment and then returned to the front in November 1916. Does it state which unit he served with? (i.e. does in say No.? Mining Company or Tunnelling Coy) This would really help to narrow down where he was and what he was doing at the time. Regards PAUL JOHNSON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 31 May , 2005 Share Posted 31 May , 2005 Jane Welcome to the Forum. In terms of your dates, BEF refers to the British Expeditionary Force i.e. these are the periods when he was on active service in France and Belgium. Home will refer to periods when he was back in Britain - possibly on leave or recovering from illness or injuries. From the info you have, it is clear he was gassed on 7/7/16. He will then have been in a field hospital until the 12th and will then have been in a UK military hospital (and possibly then recovering at home) from 13/7 until he returned to duty on 27/11. If you can recheck his discharge papers, it may make reference to which Royal Engineers Company he was in. You need to establish this to find what was happening on 7 July. Can I also suggest that you have a look at the National Archives website and search on-line for his Medal Index Card (which will show his entitlement to medals). It may well show the Company and should be a useful piece of family history for you. It'll cost you £3.50. You might also think about seeing if his service papers still exist at the National Archives (only about 30% do). You can only check this by visiitng Kew or paying a reseacher to do it for you. Once you've established the Company, then it will be possible to look-up its War Diary at the National Archives (a visit is needed for this as well). The Diary was written up each day and should give an account of what happened. If you decidedyou need a researcher, members of the Forum will be able to recommend someone reputable to you. Certainly I know one who did some excellent stuff for a work colleague. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 31 May , 2005 Share Posted 31 May , 2005 Jane, A link to an article on the website that accompanies this Forum: http://www.1914-1918.net/tunnelcoyre.htm Just a quick look at the list there seems to give these Tunneling Companies at the Somme in July 1916. 174th, 178th, 179th, 183rd, 252nd. If the worst comes to the worst and your man's service record does not exist a review of the War Diaries for these units might hold an entry for 7-7-1916, that mentions your grandfather's gassing. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 1 June , 2005 Share Posted 1 June , 2005 I wonder if the phrase "mine gassed" suggests he was affected by the inhalation of gas that built up naturally underground rather than cylinder gas on the surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Jones Posted 1 June , 2005 Share Posted 1 June , 2005 I wonder if the phrase "mine gassed" suggests he was affected by the inhalation of gas that built up naturally underground rather than cylinder gas on the surface. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi Jane I hope that you are not too overwhelmed by these responses! Just to enlarge on what Ian says here - the main gas hazard for the tunnellers was carbon monoxide which was produced in quantity by underground explosions (it also occurred naturally to some extent). There were surprisingly almost no instances of poison gases such as chlorine being used in tunnels. Are there any other details on the documents that you have about which RE Company he was in, or other names of officers? July 1916 was a very active time for the tunnellers; my hunch is that he was not injured on the Somme but on the La Bassée front where the mining was particularly active. Regards Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 1 June , 2005 Share Posted 1 June , 2005 Had work on the Messine tunnels begun at this time ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Jones Posted 1 June , 2005 Share Posted 1 June , 2005 Had work on the Messine tunnels begun at this time ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes but La Bassée - Hulloch was the mining hotspot in mid-1916. See this thread. Regards Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Manley Posted 1 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2005 Hello everyone, Thanks for all your thoughts. I have looked again at discharge papers. I cannot find a company name. There is a serial number 542. Is this any help? The officer in charge of records is at RE barracks, Chatham, no name.. And he was discharged as no longer physically fit for war service. I had previously looked at the websites listed on my route here and thought they were interesting, but felt lost as I did not know in which area Sidney served. Following your advice, I have obtained a copy of Sidney Manley's medal index card from Nat Archive. It does not appear to say his company. This is what it says: MANLEY RE Spr 158206 Sidney Victory medal roll RE/101 (or 107)B86 page 18253 British medal ----do----- ----do---- SWB dist RE.1093? on dist RE 1273 The last line is printed at end of medal section. I am very lucky as my father gave me Sidney's medals in a Christmas tin! Although strangely the ribbons have been swapped on the medals. I also have an extra set of ribbons in a box with a covering standard letter from RE record office Chatham dated June 1920 with his address in Wales. There are two numbers on box, his serial no 158206 and 18253 (which is the same as the page no above!). Are there any clues in the above info? I was really hoping the medal sheet would give more clues. Thank you all for all your help and advice.It is much appreciated. Regards Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Jones Posted 2 June , 2005 Share Posted 2 June , 2005 SWB dist RE.1093? on dist RE 1273 <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Jane This reference to the Silver War Badge (SWB) might give you a little more if you were to check the entry in the roll to which the above is a reference. Here is some background which you might already have seen to the Silver War Badge and you should also look at the National Archives website about getting access to the entry in the SWB roll. This should confirm the date of injury and also the date that he was discharged as unfit for further service. It may give the Company that he was serving with at the time that he sustained the injury. The fact that he was entitled to the British War Medal and Allied Victory Medal but not the 1914-15 Star indicates that he arrived in France after 1915. Regards Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Johnson Posted 2 June , 2005 Share Posted 2 June , 2005 Jane, I was at the NA today and looked up the Medal Roll but it did not list his unit. I could not check the SWB Roll as it was in use but I will give it another go on my next visit. Regards PAUL JOHNSON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Manley Posted 6 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2005 Hello Thank you, Paul for helping. I hope that when you next visit the NA you will have some success with the SWB roll, on my behalf. I keep looking on the web to find out more about the Somme and the role of Miners, it's all quite facinating, more than when I studied History (O level) at school! thanks again Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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