Jutland/Skaggerak; spare a thought...

[MikB]

...for the thousands of brave men lost 89 years ago today, in the battle that put the jury out forever on British naval supremacy.

Think of those sailors, huddled in their turrets or sweating at the furnaces, or peering through the haze of coal- and cordite-smoke at smudges on the horizon hardly denser than the fug around them, as 250-odd ships slugged it out with gun and torpedo.

Those lost on both sides, nearly 9,000 of them, were incinerated in cordite fires, scalded by riven boilers, shredded by splinters and blast, drowned as their ships broke up around them.

It was a battle marked by flashes of brilliant tactics and manoeuvre by both sides, by ships that had something wrong with them, and others that had something so right with them that they fought famously all through the next war as well.

We like to celebrate our victories, and mourn our defeats, but we should also remember those huge conflicts of uncertain and endlessly-debated outcome. Jutland was one of those.

Regards,

MikB

[adrianjohn]

A very moving eulogy, MikB. Well done for bringing it to attention. I for one will certainly now be thinking of them.

adrian

[historydavid]

A grim picture you paint Mike but the situation was even worse.

Total dead given as 9503 for both sides (includes 8645 on sunken ships & 858 on damaged ships that made it home).

Total wounded was 2217 for both sides (includes 1181 from sunken ships & 1036 from damaged ships that returned).

A costly business indeed.

Best wishes

David

[Adrian Roberts]

MikB

You put a lot into that post; don't assume that only four replies means we don't value it.

It's very important (and I say this to myself as much as to anyone else)that we remember the human suffering when we analyse history.

Adrian (Roberts)

[michaeldr]

I’d like to second Adrian on that; thanks MikB

And to add thanks to Terry D. for ensuring that the otherwise random ‘Remembered on the G W F’ yesterday gave us Stoker 1st Class Fred Hall RN – one to represent the many

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Paul Nixon]

MikB

You put a lot into that post; don't assume that only four replies means we don't value it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said Adrian and well put MikB.

Here's to the memory of just two of those men: 22 year old Sydney Bristow and 16 year old Cecil Langridge, both from Chailey in Sussex, who lost their lives aboard HMS Invincible.

[Doug Lewis]

Mike

Thanks for bringing this to the fore.

Remembering:-

James Snead

Boy 1st Class J/33688 "HMS Invincible"

Died at sea 31st May 1916 age 17.

Son of George and Sarah A. Snead, of 20, School Lane, Bushbury, Wolverhampton.

Regards Doug.

[truthergw]

...for the thousands of brave men lost 89 years ago today, in the battle that put the jury out forever on British naval supremacy.

Think of those sailors, huddled in their turrets or sweating at the furnaces, or peering through the haze of coal- and cordite-smoke at smudges on the horizon hardly denser than the fug around them, as 250-odd ships slugged it out with gun and torpedo.

Those lost on both sides, nearly 9,000 of them, were incinerated in cordite fires, scalded by riven boilers, shredded by splinters and blast, drowned as their ships broke up around them.

It was a battle marked by flashes of brilliant tactics and manoeuvre by both sides, by ships that had something wrong with them, and others that had something so right with them that they fought famously all through the next war as well.

We like to celebrate our victories, and mourn our defeats, but we should also remember those huge conflicts of uncertain and endlessly-debated outcome. Jutland was one of those.

Regards,

MikB

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

May I thank you for a salutory reminder. I try to remind myself from time to time, that the current fascinating topic or teasing problem involved men dying and being maimed, not to mention the families left to mourn or care for them.

[Piscator]

I'll second that Micb, and I'd like to pay tribute to my Father-in Law who passed away at the age of 95 and who served in the Great War firstly on HMS Black Prince and then HMS Agincourt, the latter as a Ldg/ Torpedoman.

A story he told me was that during the battle of Jutland he had to go on the upper deck to repair some elec-circuits as that was part of their job at that time, and he saw a large ship that he couldnt recognise because of the smoke and fire on her, he said the ship was glowing red hot from stem to stern and went passed at a rate of knots, dissappeared into the smoke and blew up shortly after it passed.

To Erny Russell. A grand old chap

With Fond memories

Len

[joseph]

MikB

Certainly made me think found this,

Stoker P Newsome of HMS Shark his funeral in Hull got a good send off.

[MikB]

Remarkable picture, Joseph. Any information about who organised (and paid for!) such a funeral? Was it a symbolic gesture to recognise one of many, or where there such funerals for all the recovered and identified dead?

Whatever the answers, the reverence in which the people held their fallen is left in no possible doubt...

Regards,

MikB

[Guest]

I suppose Jutland is forever in the shadow of the Somme and the first day British casualties of 60,000, which was only a month later.

The appaling aspect of Naval warfare which strikes me is the suddenness with which death could come to so many when, for instance, a battlecruiser exploded while the majority of the British battleships, if not the Germans, returned to port without a casualty.

[joseph]

MikB,

Then as now a Millitary/Service funeral would be funded be the War Dept. and organized by the relevant arm of the Service, regiment or Corp.

Unlike today the services themselves would do most of the work themselves the procedure, including, how the coffin should be made, is in Queens/Kings Regulations for the Royal Navy.

The men off HMS Shark were all landed to the Naval Hospital Argyle Street Hull. Still in use today. The Great War equivalent to the Service Casualty Branch would have arranged the funeral, does anyone know what this was?

Certainly in Hull all Millitary funerals were treated with reverance lots of pictures in the local papers. Large "In Memorium" services to commerorate those that didnt come home were also held, and every street had a Shrine and Roll of Honour some of which survive today.

An army funeral http://www.curme.co.uk/funer.htm

Regards Charles

[MikB]

The appaling aspect of Naval warfare which strikes me is the suddenness with which death could come to so many when, for instance, a battlecruiser exploded

Of course that was terrible, but how does it compare with a ship dying hard, pounded for hours, aflame and full of wounded? We probably all know examples. Maybe the obliterating flare is the more merciful end for the victims , though undoubtedly more shocking and demoralising for comrades in nearby ships.

Regards,

MikB

[AndyHollinger]

Jutland will always be very special in terms of understanding the War, Warfare in general, and the idea of a "British" national destiny. Rather than get caught up in the Beatty / Jellicoe fued or whose ships were better or which side won. I perfer to remember that Jellicoe could have lost the war that day (and didn't) and that it was the last of the big-ship battles that had controlled the western world's history for several centuries ...

[Guest richpics5174]

I'll second that Micb, and I'd like to pay tribute to my Father-in Law who passed away at the age of 95 and who served in the Great War firstly on HMS Black Prince and then HMS Agincourt, the latter as a Ldg/ Torpedoman.

A story he told me was that during the battle of Jutland he had to go on the upper deck to repair some elec-circuits as that was part of their job at that time, and he saw a large ship that he couldnt recognise because of the smoke and fire on her, he said the ship was glowing red hot from stem to stern and went passed at a rate of knots, dissappeared  into the smoke and blew up shortly after it passed.

To Erny Russell. A grand old chap

With Fond memories

Len

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably the HMS Invincible or HMS Defence? There was a poem I read in a book somewhere about it (I think). It was in the chapter on Jutland.

Jutland is fraught with controversy and I think people on both sides (of the arguments as well as the Channel) like to think that they could have either done one better or won or whatnot. It is so easy to judge with hindsight when, as MikB put it so well, they were "huddled in their turrets or sweating at the furnaces, or peering through the haze of coal- and cordite-smoke at smudges on the horizon hardly denser than the fug around them, as 250-odd ships slugged it out with gun and torpedo."

And yes, while I admire the lines of the dreadnoughts and battlecruisers (I'm an avid shipmodeller) I too must remind myself to pause and remember the human tragedy behind their stories.

Rest In Peace brave heroes wherever you are 'neath the North Sea,

Richard

[Guest geoff501]

...for the thousands of brave men lost 89 years ago today, in the battle that put the jury out forever on British naval supremacy.

I've only just found this thread. Yesterday, returned from an 'archive rat' session and found reports of a Great Naval Battle, in a local paper dated 10th June 1916.

Remembering seven local men who never returned home:

Private William Burford RMLI, HMS Invincible.

First Class Stoker Cameron Martin, HMS Invincible.

Able Seaman W. Manning HMS Defence.

Leading Stoker George William Troth, HMS Invincible.

First Class Stoker John Norman Barrington, HMS Queen Mary.

Stoker Thomas Townsend, HMS Queen Mary.

Stoker Joseph Yoxall, HMS Queen Mary.

[carninyj]

It's somewhat late but here's a snippet on one sailor from HMS Defence. The plaque is in Ballintoy Church of Ireland, Co Antrim

Regards

Carninyj

http://www.northantrim.com/davidelderjamieson.htm

[MikB]

It's somewhat late but here's a snippet on one sailor from HMS Defence.  The plaque is in Ballintoy Church of Ireland, Co Antrim

Regards

Carninyj

That was really sad, that so many men lost their lives because Arbuthnot wanted to redeem the reputation he'd lost by failing to engage the Goeben with obsolete ships in 1914.

The 'Defence' had no chance in the position he put her in, and the remainder of the fleet could hardly help because he was masking their fire.

"What man can size or weigh another's woe? There are some things too bitter-'ard to bear". Perhaps, but if Arbuthnot felt it so sharply there are hundreds who might've lived out their lives to a natural span, had he retired earlier to his cabin with writing-case, rum and revolver.

Regards,

MikB

[ionia]

That was really sad, that so many men lost their lives because Arbuthnot wanted to redeem the reputation he'd lost by failing to engage the Goeben with obsolete ships in 1914.

The 'Defence' had no chance in the position he put her in, and the remainder of the fleet could hardly help because he was masking their fire.

"What man can size or weigh another's woe? There are some things too bitter-'ard to bear". Perhaps, but if Arbuthnot felt it so sharply there are hundreds who might've lived out their lives to a natural span, had he retired earlier to his cabin with writing-case, rum and revolver. 

Regards,

MikB

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The flag officer who, in 1914, decided not to engage "superior force" in the shape of SMS GOEBEN and BRESLAU was Troubridge, not Arburthnot. Troubridge was never employed at sea again.

Arburthnot was Flag Officer 2nd in command of a Battle Squadron of the Grand Fleet prior to his appointment as CS1. His flag was in the ORION and in December, 1914 this squadron had a brush with elements of the High Seas Fleet returning from the Scarborough Raid. Dreyer, Arburthnot's Flag Captain, in indifferent visibility, put his ship's guns on to a German cruiser and requested permission to open fire but Arburthnot refused - "Not until the Vice Admiral signals 'Open Fire'" and the oportunity was lost and did not recur. Dreyer has speculated that Arburthnot subsequently regretted this decision and made him detirmined to "get his teeth into" the next German warship he met, and at once.

[MikB]

The flag officer who, in 1914,  decided not to engage "superior force" in the shape of SMS GOEBEN and BRESLAU was Troubridge, not Arburthnot. Troubridge was never employed at sea again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I stand corrected on the incident. Thanks. Not, however, on Arbuthnot's state of mind...

Regards,

MikB