TF 1908 - 1914

[Wienand Drenth]

Dear all,

Recently I obtained the June 1908 Army List, and to my surprise it contains a lot of information on the formation of the Territorial Force (this hope being one of the reasons for buying it). One of the most informative parts is laid in the inclusion of Army Orders. Apart from containing other interesting details, these AO are giving lists of units of the TF that had been recogised by the Army Council, including the date of acceptence. A unit of the TF was accepted once it had attained 30% of its strength.

Since June was quite soon following the TF's formation not all units had attained sufficient strength already. I guess this happened during the annual camp. A February 1909 AL I have still lists some units.

So, my question is if someone in the possession of an Army List between May 1908, and say December 1908, would like to share this information. Apart from giving more information on the TF, these dates of acceptence may also indicate how popular the creation of the TF was throughout Britain, and how willing or reluctant pre TF units were to transfer to the new organisation.

Thanks in advance for any information.

Best regards,

Wienand

[dycer]

Wienand,

Sorry for the late reply and I'm not sure if this assists.

I have a post-card(post marked 27 July 1909) entitled "8th Royal Scots marching into Camp".Clearly by this date they were a recognised Unit.

On the reverse my Uncle, writing to his Sister, says "I'd almost forgot you this year".

This suggests he had attended a previous Camp but unfortunately I do not know if it was with the 8th Royal Scots(TF).

George

[AndrewThornton]

Weinand

Here is some information relating to Staffordshire Territorial Force units that might be some help to you.

Members of the Volunteer Force did not have to re-engage immediately into the Territorial Force and were allowed until 30 June 1908 to decide whether they would enlist into the Territorials and accept the new terms of service. From the available data concerning enlistments for the four infantry battalions of the Staffordshire Brigade, the number of former Volunteers choosing to transfer to the Territorial Force varied considerably between different units. The 5th Battalion, The North Staffordshire Regiment, formed from the old 1st Volunteer Battalion, recorded the best retention figures amongst the infantry battalions, with 605 other ranks re-enlisting by June 1908, this number increasing to 657 by the end of July. In contrast to the relatively positive response from the volunteers in the Potteries, the number of Volunteer Force men who chose to transfer to the 6th Battalion, The South Staffordshire Regiment based at Wolverhampton was disappointing. By June 1908, only 332 former members of the 3rd Volunteer Battalion had re-engaged and this total had only increased by 50 men by the end of the following month. Of the former Volunteers who had transferred to the Territorial Force, many had chosen to enlist for a period of one year only. In one unit, the 6th Battalion, The North Staffordshire Regiment, the gravity of the situation was such that the Adjutant, Captain Fox, held a meeting at the Drill Hall at Burton-on-Trent to try and persuade the old volunteers to extend their period of service. The results of this meeting were less than satisfactory. Of the 240 men who had enlisted for one year, only 43 decided to extend their engagement.

Significant numbers of new recruits were therefore required to bring the infantry up to strength. From the returns made by the four infantry battalions during June 1908, 936 new recruits had joined the four infantry battalions, a figure that had increased to 1,502 by late July 1908. In spite of obtaining 504 new recruits by the end of July 1908, the 6th Battalion, The South Staffordshire Regiment remained under-strength and Lieutenant-Colonel Waterhouse, the commanding officer, was compelled to widen the units’ recruiting area. On 3 November 1908 a meeting was held at Wednesfield to raise a detachment of 60 men in the town. In addition to the Wednesfield contingent, which eventually formed part of “C” Company, further detachments were proposed for Codsall, Tettenhall Wood and Penn. In spite of these early difficulties, the four infantry battalions of the Staffordshire Brigade were only eleven officers and 93 other ranks short of the Brigade’s establishment of 116 Officers and 3,920 men by May 1909. The success of the infantry’s recruiting was further confirmed when all four battalions of the Staffordshire Brigade were chosen to be among the 108 Territorial Force infantry units presented with colours by King Edward VII at Windsor in June 1909.

Recruiting for the two Field Brigades of the Royal Field Artillery in Staffordshire also proved to be more successful in the north of the county than the south. The 1st North Midland Field Brigade was fortunate in already having members of the two batteries of the Shropshire and Staffordshire Volunteer Artillery available to transfer to the Territorial Force. In addition to the 192 former volunteer gunners who re-enlisted, a further 85 recruits were obtained for the two batteries and the ammunition column based at Shelton. The recruiting situation in Leek, where the 3rd Staffordshire Battery was formed from the former “I” Company of the 1st Volunteer Battalion, North Staffordshire Regiment, was not as buoyant. Of the 120 officers and men serving with the Company on the disbandment of the Volunteer Force, only 53 transferred to the new unit but a further 70 recruits had been obtained to replace the men who had not re-engaged. Recruiting for the 2nd North Midland Brigade also met with mixed results. The 4th Staffordshire Battery was raised in Wolverhampton and like the 6th Battalion, The South Staffordshire Regiment experienced similar problems trying to obtain recruits in the town. By early June 1908, the battery had only managed to recruit to half of its strength, requiring a further 75 men to complete its establishment. The 5th Staffordshire Battery at West Bromwich was also labouring to recruit up to its establishment, requiring 82 men to complete its complement. The situation at West Bromwich was compounded by the lack of former members of the two companies of the disbanded 1st Volunteer Battalion of The South Staffordshire Regiment choosing to transfer to the new unit. This was in stark contrast to the excellent recruiting at Brierley Hill, where “C” Company of the 1st Volunteer Battalion had been based prior to the unit’s disbandment. The 6th Staffordshire Battery had reached its establishment of 140 other ranks by late May 1908 and only required two officers to be fully manned.

Other elements of the Territorial Force in Staffordshire were entirely new units and therefore could not rely on former Volunteers to provide an experienced cadre on which to build. To overcome this problem the officer commanding the 2nd North Midland Field Company, Royal Engineers, Major William Harrison, began his recruiting among the employees of his family’s collieries. Among the first men who joined the Company were miners employed at the Cathedral and Grove Pits at Brownhills. Harrison also used the novel technique of ensuring that any men seeking work at one of his collieries would only be employed on condition that they enlisted in the Territorials. Recruiting for the Company proved to be sufficiently successful that by the time the unit attended its first camp at Towyn that August it was able to send three officers and 105 other ranks. The formation of another new unit, The North Midland Heavy Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery based at Hartshill, proved to be very successful. Recruiting for the new Battery opened on 15 June 1908 and by 22 July the unit was at full strength, consisting of six officers and 208 other ranks.

[Muerrisch]

Most useful. Did the men who enlisted into the TF [having left the VF] take their original regimental numbers with them, or did numbering start at number one, please?

[Wienand Drenth]

Hello Andrew,

Many thanks for the Staffordshire article. It gives an interesting view of the period between disbandment of the VF and tte forming of the TF. I have read in various books (by Westlake I think) that most of the VF units transferred en bloc. However, judging from your article, this is to be taken a little more careful.

All four Staffordshire Bns were indeed quickly recognised, 5th South Staffords being the last on 15th May. Perhaps you know more about this, did Staffordshire have a certain reputation as begin "good" recruiting ground for the TF?

Cheers,

Wienand

[dycer]

Wienand and Andrew,

I feel a bit out of my depth here in view of your informed responses

But having two Uncles who were serving in the 8th Royal Scots in 1909 have you any idea when the Battalion was formally created?

Ta

George

[AndrewThornton]

Langleybaston

In answer to your question, other ranks of the 6th South Staffords and 5th and 6th North Staffords all received new numbers from April 1908, starting from 1.

The 5th South Staffords retained their Volunteer Force numbering series from their days as the 2nd Volunteer Battalion and carried on issuing these when they became Territorials as if nothing happened in April 1908!

Weinand

Staffordshire was a very fruitful ground for recruiting for the Territorial Force, although units did experience a few problems with retention in some areas. During the period between April 1908 and August 1914, the county’s units managed to achieve over 97 per cent of their establishment in four years and were fully manned in one year. The manning levels achieved in Staffordshire were in stark contrast with the situation in other parts of the country, where other units struggled to recruit. During the same period, the strength of the Territorial Force nationally reached its peak in 1909 of 270,041 serving members, but this had decreased to 245,779 by September 1913. This decline was mirrored in the recruiting returns of Autumn 1913, with Staffordshire’s units dropping to a strength of 89.98 per cent of their establishment. By March 1914 this figure had risen to 95.44 per cent, with the Staffordshire Territorial Force Association having the best-recruited units in the country.

[Muerrisch]

Andrew: very useful bit of collateral...... I find the TF and SR numbers of RWF a proverbial ******'s muddle, and it is clear that there was little central guidance or direction [or, if there was, it was honoured in the breach not the observance] regarding numbering.

Thank you.

[Wienand Drenth]

George,

The origins of 8th Bn go back to 1860 when formed from Haddintonshire Rifle Volunteers. So from a lineage point of view the battalion has quite a long history. On 1 April 1908, the battalion was formally established in the TF, and recognise already 1 May 1908. See the lineage overview attached.

Cheers,

Wienand

8th Bn, The Royal Scots

(1st Haddingtonshire Rifle Volunteers)

Formed 19 Sep. 1860 as 1st Ad Bn, Haddington Rifle Vols with HQ at Haddington and consisting of

1st Corps at Haddington, formed 19 Jan. 1860.

2nd Corps at Gifford, formed 20 Jan. 1860. Disb 1874.

3rd Corps at Haddington, formed 21 Jan. 1860.

4th Corps at Aberlady, formed 17 Mar. 1860.

5th Corps at East Linton, formed 7 Apr. 1860.

6th Corps at Dunglass, formed 27 Aug. 1861. HQ West Barns 1873.

7th Corps at North Berwick, formed 21 Jul. 1868.

Consol 13 Apr. 1880 as 1st Haddington RVC with HQ at Haddington, A Coy at Haddington (late 1st Corps), B Coy at Haddington (late 3rd Corps), C Coy at Aberlady (late 4th Corps), D Coy at East Linton (late 5th Corps), E Coy at West Barns (late 6th Corps), F Coy at North Berwick (late 7th Corps). Became 1 Jul. 1881 a vol bn [6th] of the regt; redes Apr. 1888 as 7th Vol Bn. Amalg 1 Apr. 1908 (1 May 1908) with 6th Vol Bn and tsfd to the TF as 8th Bn forming HQ and A - D Coys: HQ and A Coy at Haddington, B Coy at Tranent, C Coy at Prestonpans, D Coy at North Berwick, E Coy at Dalkeith, F Coy at Loanhead, G Coy at Peebles, H Coy at Innerleithen. Emb 4 Aug. 1914; numb Mar. 1915 as 1/8th. Disemb 5 May 1919. Reconst 7 Feb. 1920 and amalg with Lowland (City of Edinburgh) RGA and 6th Bn to form 2nd (Lowland) Med Bde, RGA.

[dycer]

Wienand,

Thank you for all the information.

My Uncles were certainly serving with HQ Company, 8th Royal Scots in 1909.Both went to France in 1914 but neither survived the War.From their pre-War postcards from Camp,though,they enjoyed being "Saturday Night Soldiers".

Whether one or both were serving prior to 1908 is open to debate.Their numbers were 20 and 582 respectively.Reading Andrew's comments on the "Staffs" suggests that these numbers alone would not prove whether they served prior to 1908.

Unfortunately I cannot post photographs of the Battalion at Camp on the Web-Site but e-mail me if you want any copies.

I also have a short "War" History of the Battalion wriiten for the Haddingtonshire Courier in 1919.I am happy to photocopy it and send it to you if you would like it for information.

Thank you again

George

p.s. My Son is an avid Football supporter and a few years ago,whilst on holiday in Mol(Belgium), we had to take him to PSV's Ground.He wears the shirt but the beer-glass is for display purposes only.Must admit it was easy to find the Football Stadium but a more difficult to find our way out of Eindhoven.

[GrandsonMichael]

No doubt traffic s..t?

[Wienand Drenth]

Wienand,

Thank you for all the information.

My Uncles were certainly serving with HQ Company, 8th Royal Scots in 1909.Both went to France in 1914 but neither survived the War.From their pre-War postcards from Camp,though,they enjoyed being "Saturday Night Soldiers".

Whether one or both were serving prior to 1908 is open to debate.Their numbers were 20 and 582 respectively.Reading Andrew's comments on the "Staffs" suggests that these numbers alone would not prove whether they served prior to 1908.

Unfortunately I cannot post photographs of the Battalion at Camp on the Web-Site but e-mail me if you want any copies.

I also have a short "War" History of the Battalion wriiten for the Haddingtonshire Courier in 1919.I am happy to photocopy it and send it to you if you would like it for information. 

If you would do that, that would be great! I will contact you by pm

p.s. My Son is an avid Football supporter and a few years ago,whilst on holiday in Mol(Belgium), we had to take him to PSV's Ground.He wears the shirt but the beer-glass is for display purposes only.Must admit it was easy to find the Football Stadium but a more difficult to find our way out of Eindhoven.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The big problem is the numerous contruction work on the road, and the bad redirections notices.... I live close by the stadium, if the wind is from the right direction I can hear them cheer etc

Cheers,

Wienand